August/September 2013 Fleet Discussion

[Jester]

There is no way, with any interpretation, that members get straight time for hiolidays worked.

I am going to disagree with my own interpretation it is straight time. As I understand holiday pay, and it never really made much sense to me, if one worked a holiday, then they were paid 1 1/2x their daily pay, but if one did not work that scheduled day (dropped, VTO, etc.), that person gets 1/2x their daily pay. So in a sense it is straight time, because if one works or doesn't work, the person still gets an 1/2 extra daily pay. I would humor myself and think if all my scheduled work days were holidays, and I never worked, I would still get half my annual pay!

 

[1 VF-1 2NV]

been discussing stuff with people ...... I for one (and others )are in favor of us signing helping hands agreement as soon as possible ....

the reasons for this are complex .

Haha. You must be lower seniority than AA clerks who were displaced if you're worried.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Another thing that our members cant lose is the language that gives them the work of aircraft with 69 or more seats.
Both united and delta put in new orders for 70 seat planes since the 50 seaters werent economical with fuel pressures.

 

[blue collar]

Not sure exactly how your contract is, but the mx contract is absolutely straight time for holidays. 8 hrs straight time and 8 hours holiday.

 

[mike33]

Another thing that our members cant lose is the language that gives them the work of aircraft with 69 or more seats.
Both united and delta put in new orders for 70 seat planes since the 50 seaters werent economical with fuel pressures.

Thats a great point!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Blue collar, fleet is the same. Nobody gets paid a premium rate for working yhe holidays.

 

[necigrad]

Necigrad,
As i said, all holidays worked is paid at straight time rates. There is no double time nor is there any 2.5 time at amr, but if you want to lump in holiday pay along with rate of pay for working hours and call that double time, then nothing is stopping you.
Nothing in my comparison is opinion nor can it be refuted. The facts are that the company is putting 5% into the retirement and 3% into pt. If you want to look at it as the base contribution, then fine but it is still currently 5% and 3%.
regards,

Regarding the holiday pay and if it's straight or double time, let me ask you a question. If you work a holiday (and assuming eight hours for the example) do you get 8 hours of pay for the day or 16? Put another way, if you work a full 40 hour week M-F including a holiday, do you get paid 40 or 48? I guess that extra hours is just #### out by the free pay fairy or something, maybe an accounting error perhaps?

On the pension being 5% I challenge you to provide the math. You will be completly and totally unable to provide this. Why? Because it's mathimatically impossible to take multiple variables (the pay you get, vs the pay Mr. 8 year gets vs the pay pay the new hire gets) and have it equal out to a nonvariable. YOU may have 5% of your pay (it's actually 5.1%) but it's FAR less for 40% of the workforce which are not topped out. Unless of course the world resolves only arund those who are topped out.

I am not critisizing the fact that you made a comparison. I'm also not critisizing anything that I saw that was wrong. There are, however, several errors, are at the least misrepresentations, that you made that should not be unchallenged. What the results are I don't care, I try not to be biased. I do, howeer, care deeply that the facts are CORRECT. If there is no way to fully do that incorrect answers are acceptable as long as you explain the deficiencies.

I am going to disagree with my own interpretation it is straight time. As I understand holiday pay, and it never really made much sense to me, if one worked a holiday, then they were paid 1 1/2x their daily pay, but if one did not work that scheduled day (dropped, VTO, etc.), that person gets 1/2x their daily pay. So in a sense it is straight time, because if one works or doesn't work, the person still gets an 1/2 extra daily pay. I would humor myself and think if all my scheduled work days were holidays, and I never worked, I would still get half my annual pay!

Dunno where this 1 1/2 number keeps coming from; that's OT not holiday. Look at a holiday paystub. You get 8 hours if you're FT and however many hours you're regularly scheduled to work if you're full time, likely four or five. Every single FT FSA and FSL paycheck will have 8 hours added in for holiday pay whenever thre is a holiday in the pay week. In addition to that, if you work on the holiday you get paid straight time for your work as well. Everyone get's paid 8 hours for the holiday, and if you work that is additional pay for the day.

Now, if someone wanted to make an argument that the actual pay rate for the day is straight time, I would be fine with that as long as it was stipulated that all employees recieve holiday pay. Here's why it makes a difference. Let's say that AA (dunno what's correct though) gets double time for hours worked on a holiday. That's it. Person A works at AA and Person B works at US. They both work 0500-1530 for a 40 hours week, including one day on a holiday. Person A gets paid for 48 hours. Person B gets paid for 48 hours. If US paid straight time for the holidays Person A would still get 48 hours of pay, but person B would only get 40. On the flip side, if AA only gets holiday pay for holidays worked (say same shifts and people, but it's Christmas which is on Saturday) then Person A gets only 40 hurs fo pay and Person B gets 48. It's a big difference. Again, keep in mind that the example applies to FT only, PT numbers will vary.

 

[mike33]

been discussing stuff with people ...... I for one (and others )are in favor of us signing helping hands agreement as soon as possible ....

the reasons for this are complex .

Complex in your mind. Not really complex at all.
I got an email from a poster concerned about working alongside a contractor when we become AA. No fricken way will this union allow a contract outfit to work " OUR " planes at a station that has FS when it gets to that. The company would love for you to sign a " Helping Hands " agreement to allow you to do that. That is why you have leverage in case you didn't realize that! No way will something be signed that will allow that and at the same time keep the AA TWU brothers locked out. I am a direct result of those circumstances and will not allow that to happen again for my own gain and i would hope that you would do the same and not have History repeat itself.
I dont answer emails sent thru the forum MOD. Thats why i am giving my opinion here. The reason i don't is because if i can't say it in an open forum on the particular subject, or in a breakroom environment, then its not worth discussing when it comes to union business.

I do know that PHX has a station visit on thur/fri this week and i would hope that those concerns can be answered for you......

If you don't attend?....then shame....

And one more thing before i watch USA beat HONDURAS....... I'm sure we Aint gonna get a Single Carrier Cerificate with out a helping hands that has protections that include Furloughed AA at some point.

 

[charlie Brown]

Necigrad,
Usairways members do not get 1.5 pay when working a holiday. Double time does not start on the first day off until after 8 hours is worked on that day. If u r referring to second day off, then yes double time is paid after working 4 hours on first say off.
At any rate, the agcs are big on saying "but amr doesnt have a pension". Such subjective talk and any talk about investing or how the iampf is better than a 401k, has nothing to do with the cost for the company. The cost to the company is what it contributes, not what plan has more investing potential. Thus, as far as the cost to the company, 5% is 5% makes no difference if it goes into a 401 or pension. Anyone that says otherwise is simply being pilitical, ignorant, or being intellectually dishonest.

Tim
While I'm not the smartest person when it comes to investing, so correct me if I'm wrong. But when you tell people that 5 percent is 5 percent it's all the same, are you talking only about the top out scale? For instance if I'm in my 5th year pay making 15.42 hr. and I put 5% into my 401k, then than comes to .77 cents. However being in the pension I am getting 1.05 put in. Unless I'm figuring it wrong, the only time pension and 401k is equal to 5% is at top out. Until top out 1.05 into the pension is more than 5%. This is why I personally like the pension. 5% to a ft agent making start 10.07 hr is .50 cent. His 1.05 he gets in pension is a little over 10%, unless I'm wrong?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Necigrad. It is utterly ridiculous for me to waste anymore time with the holiday comparisons. I said that amr workers get the 1.5 pay rate for working the holidays. I also said the holiday pay rate at usairways was straight time. Now, that statement is quite basic and doesnt need to be deconstructed or critiqued but i guess i cant stop u from quote mining me or your otherwise lack of understanding about what a pay rate is.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Cb, yeah. Top out. Some workers will be more than the 5% and tons will be less than 5%.
Same with sick pay. If someone has 100 sick days, he gets paid full sick pay. Most of the members dont have 100. Thats why i like the full pay at amr. I understand you like the iampf, i suspected as much, but i hope u and the nc also understand that a large group of your members realize having the 3 prongs is better than two. Increasing retirement contributions should recognize the 401k. Throwing more money into the iampf without consideration of the 401k is stupid since the iam already screwed your members once with cutbacks. regards,

 

[ograc]

It was my understanding that during the 'transition agreement" negotiations the company offered premium pay of time and 1/2 + hours worked on the holiday (double time + 1/2) for members scheduled to work. Members who were scheduled off on a holiday, however, would receive no holiday compensation. The union NC rejected this proposal and offered all members would receive "holiday pay" based on their hours scheduled to work at straight time rates. translation: (double time rate of pay) if scheduled to work. If the member is scheduled off they receive holiday pay based on their scheduled hours of work at straight time rates. This counter proposal is the language in the current transition agreement US Fleet Service after the merger with AWA.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Double time pay rates and holiday pay are two entirely different items. Maybe cb would clarify this for everyone. When u get ur stubs for july 4, see if the company decided to pay any of you double time for hours worked. Pay rates are akin to hours worked. Holiday pay is paid whether you work or not

 

[Kev3188]

Another thing that our members cant lose is the language that gives them the work of aircraft with 69 or more seats.
Both united and delta put in new orders for 70 seat planes since the 50 seaters werent economical with fuel pressures.

Now is the time for your NC to be crafting extremely solid scope language that covers all kinds of airframe types, flying, etc.

Low thresholds, and long lists of types that count toward it should be key... I'd start with "anything with a jet engine(s)" and go from there.

And one more thing before i watch USA beat HONDURAS.......

**YES**

 

[Tim Nelson]

Kev, at the very minimum, no current employee should have his job contracted out. At nw, you guys at least had the rj station grandfather clause that grandfathered all employees at their express station.