TWU/IAM Association Negotiations for Fleet Service and M&R Are Delayed For Extension Talks

[CremaDiLimone]

This came confirmed from the meeting in DFW. I don’t want to say anything about what the wages could or couldn’t be but it’s not hard to figure out knowing what Delta and SWA scales are. We already lead on the 401K. SWA has 10% but it’s all a match with no contribution. Delta is 4/5 where we are 5/4. UAL has a mix of the IAMPF for Co employees and a 401K that doesn’t look that good.

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yeah, my take is that company has always excluded southwest from the bargaining mix and only included the legacy carriers - ua & dl.

i believe dl got a 5% raise on june 1 and united ramp is currently at $36.72/hr for a maxed-out non-lead. i didn't put a dl wage for a maxed out ramp employee because i've asked 2 different dl guys and got 2 different answers.

with nearly a $2/hr pay gap currently between us and ua, it doesn't take much to figure out what the boost will be. your screenshot also mentioned shift differential, ua is .2 cents more per hour than us?

as we speak today, oil has dipped under $70/bbl and we know aa's refusal to even think about hedging and insists on buying on the spot market. with the recent pilot and f/a contracts, it's imperative that jet fuel never becomes the company's #1 fleeting expense again.

i'm not too greedy. i'd be happy with $2.50/hr more on extension start and 3% a year for each year after. if we get more per hour on extension start, more power to the assoc.

 

[WeAAsles]

yeah, my take is that company has always excluded southwest from the bargaining mix and only included the legacy carriers - ua & dl.

i believe dl got a 5% raise on june 1 and united ramp is currently at $36.72/hr for a maxed-out non-lead. i didn't put a dl wage for a maxed out ramp employee because i've asked 2 different dl guys and got 2 different answers.

with nearly a $2/hr pay gap currently between us and ua, it doesn't take much to figure out what the boost will be. your screenshot also mentioned shift differential, ua is .2 cents more per hour than us?

as we speak today, oil has dipped under $70/bbl and we know aa's refusal to even think about hedging and insists on buying on the spot market. with the recent pilot and f/a contracts, it's imperative that jet fuel never becomes the company's #1 fleeting expense again.

i'm not too greedy. i'd be happy with $2.50/hr more on extension start and 3% a year for each year after. if we get more per hour on extension start, more power to the assoc.

Man you really need to join my Facebook Group page. Here’s DL and SWA current. $2.50 keeps us below both Delta and SWA. It will be higher than that or it won’t be brought back to us.

Edit: My thoughts are with Delta likely going up in April. My guess is Delta + 3% ($38.13/14) I’d like to stay above SWA. Company did compare SWA for M&R wages in 2020. Ramp was below us.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

yeah, i don't argue your math and fair to assume dl will get 3% next spring. my personal take is i would be fine (i said happy) with $2.50 at the start and 3% a year for the 2 years after.

$4 at the start and 3% a year for the 2 years after that seem akin to other recent contracts that have been dealt out. there is no doubt the airlines will have to raise fares in unison and hopefully the govt./politicians won't run around claiming gouging - or worse; to ingratiate themselves with the electorate.

even with $4/hr for starters, they'll be a gap in time that southwest will be paid more in 2025...but, you said that southwest m&r numbers were in the mix during the 2020 negotiations. that $4/hr and 3% in 2025 would see us far and away in front of ua.

we both assume a 3% raise for delta ramp next spring - no guarantee delta will do that. the $4/hr starter and a 2025 3% raise for us will guarantee delta them give that 3% (at the very least).

if we can get that, more power to them and us.

as far as facebook groups - you prob have a good one. i'm not on facebook. if i was, i'd be there.

 

[WeAAsles]

yeah, i don't argue your math and fair to assume dl will get 3% next spring. my personal take is i would be fine (i said happy) with $2.50 at the start and 3% a year for the 2 years after.

$4 at the start and 3% a year for the 2 years after that seem akin to other recent contracts that have been dealt out. there is no doubt the airlines will have to raise fares in unison and hopefully the govt./politicians won't run around claiming gouging - or worse; to ingratiate themselves with the electorate.

even with $4/hr for starters, they'll be a gap in time that southwest will be paid more in 2025...but, you said that southwest m&r numbers were in the mix during the 2020 negotiations. that $4/hr and 3% in 2025 would see us far and away in front of ua.

we both assume a 3% raise for delta ramp next spring - no guarantee delta will do that. the $4/hr starter and a 2025 3% raise for us will guarantee delta them give that 3% (at the very least).

if we can get that, more power to them and us.

as far as facebook groups - you prob have a good one. i'm not on facebook. if i was, i'd be there.

Delta will have to go up almost 6% to go above SWA next April. Delta is almost $1.00 below them now.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

should give them more due to delta's bump cap policy.

 

[BigTex]

T/A Agreed

https://twu514.org/files/2024/09/MandR-All-in-Rates-DIST.pdf

 

[WeAAsles]

should give them more due to delta's bump cap policy.

Fleet.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

good to see that business was accomplished in short time when the company was hot to correct the starting pay flaw. kudos to all, good job. more than i thought it would be, not sure what an improved/enhanced quality of work life means.

a yes from me. some malcontents, not-so-bright and ignorant out there, asking for a signing bonus. their next question is if they can possibly work from home.

again, i want the company to be financially healthy. hoping for low jet fuel and the energy king to be back in the captain's chair to see through the next 4 years of aa's financial health.

 

[Talos]

good to see that business was accomplished in short time when the company was hot to correct the starting pay flaw. kudos to all, good job. more than i thought it would be, not sure what an improved/enhanced quality of work life means.

a yes from me. some malcontents, not-so-bright and ignorant out there, asking for a signing bonus. their next question is if they can possibly work from home.

again, i want the company to be financially healthy. hoping for low jet fuel and the energy king to be back in the captain's chair to see through the next 4 years of aa's financial health.

Frankly the quality of work life could use improvement. Between the scanner devices and the management people handling assignments the company needs an upgrade. Drivers can't make it to next impound as they are still working previous trip. Too many moving parts in general. Some allocated know what they are doing, others not so much. You like to see the operation do well, but wonder where some of the ideas come from.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

yes, i see and experience the dysfunction here.

i can remember when ua asked aa mngt. if they could spy on our intl. operations in the mid 90's. they couldn't fathom how aa ran it's intl. operation so efficiently. this was when the crew chiefs ran the show and made the assignments. today, it's the opposite - ua has vastly improved it's intl. ops in it's hq and aa...well...never mind.

if you're in dfw, i can tell you that your new ramp boss is an asset to the company. intelligent and willing to listen and implement input from crew chiefs. it's all the red-tape dysfunctional and personal politics between the work on the ramp and the level 8 that pollutes and distorts everything. ralph cuts through all that BS and will act upon reasonable requests and suggestions from crew chiefs and clerks.

will he get rid of the rover nonsense? probably not, that's a us air/america west focus and they run the company now. will he improve things? i believe he will. good for you and good for the company.

yesterday's memo told us that quality of work life will be improved/enhanced. still not sure what that means.

 

[Talos]

good to see that business was accomplished in short time when the company was hot to correct the starting pay flaw. kudos to all, good job. more than i thought it would be, not sure what an improved/enhanced quality of work life means.

a yes from me. some malcontents, not-so-bright and ignorant out there, asking for a signing bonus. their next question is if they can possibly work from home.

again, i want the company to be financially healthy. hoping for low jet fuel and the energy king to be back in the captain's chair to see through the next 4 years of aa's financial health.

Frankly the quality of work life could use improvement. Between the scanner devices and the management people handling assignments the company needs an upgrade. Drivers can't make it to next impound as they are still working previous trip. Too many moving parts in general. Some allocated know what they are doing, others not so much. You like to see the operation do well, but wonder where some of the ideas come from

yes, i see and experience the dysfunction here.

i can remember when ua asked aa mngt. if they could spy on our intl. operations in the mid 90's. they couldn't fathom how aa ran it's intl. operation so efficiently. this was when the crew chiefs ran the show and made the assignments. today, it's the opposite - ua has vastly improved it's intl. ops in it's hq and aa...well...never mind.

if you're in dfw, i can tell you that your new ramp boss is an asset to the company. intelligent and willing to listen and implement input from crew chiefs. it's all the red-tape dysfunctional and personal politics between the work on the ramp and the level 8 that pollutes and distorts everything. ralph cuts through all that BS and will act upon reasonable requests and suggestions from crew chiefs and clerks.

will he get rid of the rover nonsense? probably not, that's a us air/america west focus and they run the company now. will he improve things? i believe he will. good for you and good for the company.

yesterday's memo told us that quality of work life will be improved/enhanced. still not sure what that means.

I am at DFW. I hope the new guy can do anything to improve things. Big mistake removing crew chiefs for allocaters. It has been a good amount of time and little improvement in the allocaters. Just disappointing.

 

[WeAAsles]

good to see that business was accomplished in short time when the company was hot to correct the starting pay flaw. kudos to all, good job. more than i thought it would be, not sure what an improved/enhanced quality of work life means.

a yes from me. some malcontents, not-so-bright and ignorant out there, asking for a signing bonus. their next question is if they can possibly work from home.

again, i want the company to be financially healthy. hoping for low jet fuel and the energy king to be back in the captain's chair to see through the next 4 years of aa's financial health.

Definitely a yes from me as well and I’m also selling it. Posted this to my Group.

“Simple Math 🧮 equations that you can do for yourself using the wages that correspond with your time at AA.

So this is for the Top of Scale Wage not counting Crew Chiefs premiums. (My Scale) Full Time.

$39.14 X 2080 = $81,411.20
Holiday Premium Time and one half for 10 Holidays.
$58.71 X 8 X 10 = $4,696.80
401K (TWU) 9% Contribution/ Match
$86,108 GROSS X 9% = $7,749.72

For a Grand Total of $93,857.72

That’s with no Swaps or Overtime worked. $93,857.72

Now do your own Math 🧮
And remember if you’re lower down that scale you won’t always be. Every year your formula will grow”

And I’ll definitely be doing some solid OT so the rest of my career should be over 100K plus. Hell this keeps up and I may even stay a little longer.

 

[WeAAsles]

yes, i see and experience the dysfunction here.

i can remember when ua asked aa mngt. if they could spy on our intl. operations in the mid 90's. they couldn't fathom how aa ran it's intl. operation so efficiently. this was when the crew chiefs ran the show and made the assignments. today, it's the opposite - ua has vastly improved it's intl. ops in it's hq and aa...well...never mind.

if you're in dfw, i can tell you that your new ramp boss is an asset to the company. intelligent and willing to listen and implement input from crew chiefs. it's all the red-tape dysfunctional and personal politics between the work on the ramp and the level 8 that pollutes and distorts everything. ralph cuts through all that BS and will act upon reasonable requests and suggestions from crew chiefs and clerks.

will he get rid of the rover nonsense? probably not, that's a us air/america west focus and they run the company now. will he improve things? i believe he will. good for you and good for the company.

yesterday's memo told us that quality of work life will be improved/enhanced. still not sure what that means.

Ralph is good people. I worked with him in MIA too. Yes DFW is going to be very happy to have him. I even sent him a wishing him well E Mail.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Definitely a yes from me as well and I’m also selling it. Posted this to my Group.

“Simple Math 🧮 equations that you can do for yourself using the wages that correspond with your time at AA.

So this is for the Top of Scale Wage not counting Crew Chiefs premiums. (My Scale) Full Time.

$39.14 X 2080 = $81,411.20
Holiday Premium Time and one half for 10 Holidays.
$58.71 X 8 X 10 = $4,696.80
401K (TWU) 9% Contribution/ Match
$86,108 GROSS X 9% = $7,749.72

For a Grand Total of $93,857.72

That’s with no Swaps or Overtime worked. $93,857.72

Now do your own Math 🧮
And remember if you’re lower down that scale you won’t always be. Every year your formula will grow”

And I’ll definitely be doing some solid OT so the rest of my career should be over 100K plus. Hell this keeps up and I may even stay a little longer.

yeah, it's a no-brainer for those maxed-out. some peers of mine are grumbling a bit about no signing bonus. we (me included) never got the memo that today's signing bonus is a distorted quasi yesterday's retro pay. i got the memo here, so, i'm not too disappointed.

example - the ticket agents. if they got a $3/hr raise on DOS and worked 8,000 hours between 2020-2024: $200 per year of service signing bonus does not equal $24,000 retro pay. another piece of math that only works for the powers that be....but, i digress...

overall, i'd be leery of the next contract. i got it wrong in 2016. when parker bumped us up - with no obligation; $4/hr to match united, i felt the proof was in the pudding that an industry-leading contract was right down the road. 4 years later, we got that contract. not very expedient at all.

i'm looking to leave and the timing seems right, but this is a different era. no retro does not incentivize the company to negotiate in a timely manner. until then, we'll watch united and delta make moves to keep up.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Ralph is good people. I worked with him in MIA too. Yes DFW is going to be very happy to have him. I even sent him a wishing him well E Mail.

no doubt. as a shareholder, i rate him an asset to the company.

can't and won't get into details, but this company needs more ralphs and less ambitious/incompetent levels in between the work and the top bosses.

i don't remember the twu's stance, but i believe the aa pilots and aa flight attendants unions went for parker's plan and leadership post-merger and rejected the legacy aa mngt.'s plan and leadership. if i remember correctly, legacy aa's plan was more RJ flying and hold steady mainline flying. i guess we got what we asked for - ramp ops-wise; dubious concepts like rovers and dynamic manning have to be lumped, since we (the unions) embraced legacy us air's post-merger plan.