August/September 2013 Fleet Discussion

[Solidarity]

any idea as to where aa would have us do the ground work at? for example.. i know in my station AA has i believe about 10 mainline jet flights and may be about 6 express flights a day their ramp and baggage claim are both outsourced.. are you saying 700 that for example in a station like mine we would ground handle aa flights? and if so is that a prelude to what may happen after merger

The only outsourced stations in which AA should EVEN consider vendor work for USAirways would have to be cities that have no AA Fleet on recall. I believe that PDX, RNO and a couple more cities fit that criteria. Otherwise we are preventing our future brothers and sisters at AA from returning from cities from which they were recently furloughed from. As far a helping hands I believe that both sides of fleet (AA/US) do not want to engage in helping hands because it is known to become a "turf" war prior to full integration and ultimately sacrifices jobs on both sides.

 

[P. REZ]

Yeah, giving up stations for equity sucks but the question was comparing the two agreements. Omg, another drop dead date? Didnt know about that, where is that cited and what date?
As far as the flight limit, i guess we can say that about our class one stations as well. I prefer mirroring something like ua has not determined on x amount of flights but probably impractical in these talks.
Happy fathers day brother

Tim,

Happy Father's Day bro. I can't recall where I read that scope language but if memory serves me right, scope protections end on amendable date.

P. Rez

 

[700UW]

The protections end the day before the amendable date.

 

[mike33]

The protections end the day before the amendable date.

We know that 700.....12:01 if you are going to be so technical........Geez...ur getting kind of annoying to read...
And yes i know where the ignore button is

 

[Tim Nelson]

Well stated Solidarity. I also hope the twu would honor our laid off brethern. We just have to be careful as i think the greater benefit is to refuse helping hands. That doesnt mean the america west/usair helping hand didnt create jobs, it did. Several laid off members from mke and other stations were allowed to get hired at "west" under the helping hand and then regain their full seniority after the ta.
I suspect the iam will push and sign a helping hand and claim that it created jobs like the united merger and the previous us merger but imo the cost of making things more "seamless" are too great. If the company wants to move things frwd then im only for a ta.

As for my previous comments i was referring to us nc members.

 

[Solidarity]

Well stated Solidarity. I also hope the twu would honor our laid off brethern. We just have to be careful as i think the greater benefit is to refuse helping hands. That doesnt mean the america west/usair helping hand didnt create jobs, it did. Several laid off members from mke and other stations were allowed to get hired at "west" under the helping hand and then regain their full seniority after the ta.
I suspect the iam will push and sign a helping hand and claim that it created jobs like the united merger and the previous us merger but imo the cost of making things more "seamless" are too great. If the company wants to move things frwd then im only for a ta.

As for my previous comments i was referring to us nc members.

I did not realize that USAirways NC had visited ORD already. My apologies. I know that SFO and SJC were visited last week and many more stations such as PHX, BOS, and PHL get visits from NC members and AGCs next week and it will continue until a large majority of the membership is informed

 

[mike33]

I also hope the twu would honor our laid off brethern. We just have to be careful as i think the greater benefit is to refuse helping hands. That doesnt mean the america west/usair helping hand didnt create jobs, it did. Several laid off members from mke and other stations were allowed to get hired at "west" under the helping hand and then regain their full seniority after the ta.

If there is a " Helping Hands " is should be with a tight grip....not a " Limp Fish ". We are in a good position.....We need to follow through or be " Choked " for years

 

[Solidarity]

Solidarity - "Knock Knock"
700 - "Who's there"
Solidarity "You Are" -- keep up the good work on behalf of 142

 

[Tim Nelson]

Yes. Mf and cb spent a few hours.

 

[Tim Nelson]

A quick word about IAM141 update

The update speaks about a strike and/or a lockout. So I want to address the legal application of the RLA for both.

An airline can NOT lock out its employees, legally, if the union does not strike. This is different than the NLRA and other labor laws,and a strong advantage of the RLA. The idea of the RLA was not to interrupt interstate commerce so the freedoms on staying on the job are more encouraging. During negotiations, it sucks because negotiations take like forever nowadays with greedy management, but after a release, the RLA is a huge advantage. In other industries, at 12 midnight when a contract expires, a company can lock out its employees, much like the most visible lockouts in sports. Not so under the RLA.

In application, at 12 midnight after a cooling off period, a union has the right to strike. IF the union strikes, then the airline can replace or even lock out the employees. BUT the RLA doesn't force a union to strike, it has the option of staying on the job and calling a strike or wildcat at its own discretion after the cooling off at a later date. That's a real pain in the butt for airlines.

Of course, if the union decides not to strike, the airline is free to impose its own contract. However, the problem for the airline is that these airlines are highly leveraged with credit and both the stockholders and Mr Banker are not comfortable with the idea of having a group of employees coming to work and walking off the job at any given time or at any given airport.

If by some miracle, the NMB gives a release, then imo the best strategy for any union would be to stay on the job and have the union leadership decide, at its own time, when or if to strike....NOT at midnight on the 30th day when the company would be most prepared.

Also, I would think if a miracle did happen and the NMB granted a release anytime soon, then it would do so for only one group, most likely the mechanics. Don't get me wrong, the NMB will grant a release in time but I don't personally think that time is within 2013. regards,

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,

Happy Father's Day bro. I can't recall where I read that scope language but if memory serves me right, scope protections end on amendable date.

P. Rez

Just reread the AMR contract and it doesn't appear that all scope protections end at amendable date. As it stands today, 17 stations are protected, provided they stay above the 7 flight per day threshold. At amendable date, the scope falls back to Article 1C, i.e., all currently staffed TWU stations continue to stay TWU provided the stations maintain 15 flights per day. All other stations become insourced at 20 flights per day. That's the best I understand it with a quick read. In both cases, better than the current US AIRWAYS scope provisions in its contract. I think class one is 20 flights per day but for a station to move up to class 1 I think it has to have 25 flights per day. I'd like to see the threshold of both contracts reduced [and currently staffed stations grandfathered], but as it stands, the AMR contract has a lower threshold and would allow stations like ORD, IAH, and some others to get into the Class 1 category.

Thoughts? Discussion?

 

[roabilly]

Most Members are not even aware of what the RLA is, or that they are even regulated by it! Ironically; they blame the Union for the lengthy drawn-out processes of negotiations! The reason the act exists to begin with, is because the Railways and Airlines are considered to be vital to our National Security, and Commerce. In the early days of the railroads, federal troops would intervene when strikes were initiated… that’s how serious the Government views any compromise of the transportation infrastructure. In fact, even today under the RLA, the President of the United States can end any strike!

Here is brief summery of what negotiating under the act entails…

Unlike the National Labor Relations Act (NRLA) which adopts a less interventionist approach to the way the parties conduct collective bargining or resolve their disputes arising under collective bargaining agreements, the RLA specifies both (1) the negotiation and mediation procedures that unions and employers must exhaust before they may change the status quo, and (2) the methods for resolving "minor" disputes over the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements.

The RLA permits strikes over major disputes only after the union has exhausted the RLA's negotiation and mediation procedures, while barring almost all strikes over minor disputes. The RLA also authorizes the courts to enjoin strikes if the union has not exhausted those procedures.

On the other hand, the RLA imposes fewer restrictions on the tactics that unions may use when they do have the right to strike. The RLA does not, unlike the NLRA, bar secondary boycotts against other RLA-regulated carriers; it may also permit employees to engage in other types of strikes, such as intermittent strikes, that might be unprotected under the NLRA.

 

[700UW]

According discussions with the TWU the protections expire the day before the amendable date.

Here is the information:

During these negotiations, we agreed that the following seventeen (17) stations will continue to be staffed with TWU represented employees following the implementation of Article 1(c). Those stations will remain staffed, with TWU represented Fleet Service employees, so long as the annual departures are at or above 2555 from the effective date of this agreement up to the day prior to the amendable date.
ATL JFK MIA STL
AUS LAS ORD TPA
BOS LAX SAT
DCA LGA SFO
DFW MCO SJU
Beyond the amendable date, Article 1(c) will apply.

1C:

(c) The Company will continue to assign American Airlines TWU represented employees in classifications designated by the Company to all stations wherein such TWU represented employees are assigned currently with 5475 and above annual departures and will staff new cities (those not currently staffed by the TWU) at or above 7300 annual departures. The Company will also re-staff former TWU staffed cities that have been de-staffed once those cities reach 7300 and above annual departures.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

A quick word about IAM141 update

The update speaks about a strike and/or a lockout. So I want to address the legal application of the RLA for both.

An airline can NOT lock out its employees, legally, if the union does not strike. This is different than the NLRA and other labor laws,and a strong advantage of the RLA. The idea of the RLA was not to interrupt interstate commerce so the freedoms on staying on the job are more encouraging. During negotiations, it sucks because negotiations take like forever nowadays with greedy management, but after a release, the RLA is a huge advantage. In other industries, at 12 midnight when a contract expires, a company can lock out its employees, much like the most visible lockouts in sports. Not so under the RLA.

In application, at 12 midnight after a cooling off period, a union has the right to strike. IF the union strikes, then the airline can replace or even lock out the employees. BUT the RLA doesn't force a union to strike, it has the option of staying on the job and calling a strike or wildcat at its own discretion after the cooling off at a later date. That's a real pain in the butt for airlines.

Of course, if the union decides not to strike, the airline is free to impose its own contract. However, the problem for the airline is that these airlines are highly leveraged with credit and both the stockholders and Mr Banker are not comfortable with the idea of having a group of employees coming to work and walking off the job at any given time or at any given airport.

If by some miracle, the NMB gives a release, then imo the best strategy for any union would be to stay on the job and have the union leadership decide, at its own time, when or if to strike....NOT at midnight on the 30th day when the company would be most prepared.

Also, I would think if a miracle did happen and the NMB granted a release anytime soon, then it would do so for only one group, most likely the mechanics. Don't get me wrong, the NMB will grant a release in time but I don't personally think that time is within 2013. regards,

COOLING OFF PERIODS
23. Q: What happens during the cooling off period? A: Normally the NMB invites the parties to meet during the cooling off period in order to further mediate an agreement. These meetings are often referred to as "public interest mediation" or "super mediation."

24. Q: What if no agreement is reached during the 30-day cooling off period? A:
If no agreement is reached by the end of the 30-day cooling off period, the parties are free to exercise "self-help." This means that the Union is free to strike or engage in other activity, and the Carrier is free to impose its last best offer or temporarily cease operations or engage in other self-help activity, unless a PEB is created.

http://www.nmb.gov/m...-mediation.html

 

[700UW]

Tim loading a plane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPzRPga6uDg