Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[Overspeed]

 
 
Man can you blow some smoke! You repeatedly blame AMFA for job losses yet, "disappointed TWBoo couldn't save AFW but AA is to blame"!  Credibliity man, get some!

 
You must be reading between the lines again. I said that the TWU did much better at protecting jobs than AMFA did at AS, NW, and UA.
 
The facts are the facts.

 

[Overspeed]

305 mechanics jobs, hmm, how many mechanics were in AFW, and MCI? One thing is that your claim that those jobs disappeared forever is false, it looks like will be just as many jobs in Duluth as there ever was. Wonder how the starting pay in Duluth compares to the starting pay in Tulsa? 

 
Those former AMFA represented AMT jobs start pretty low and top out far less. Again Bob you are so willing to have overhaul outsourced to line your pockets.
 
Brown says airplane mechanics at her company start earning between $12 and $15 an hour, while veterans who have their FAA Airframe and Powerplant licenses top out at $28 an hour.
 
With just his sheet metal training, Hendricks started at AAR making $12 an hour. But after five years he's already up to $21, because five years of working on airplanes has taught him a lot. "Unlike assembly line work, it's a team effort," he says. "Just knowing that I'm able to work on the plane and do the job well is satisfying."
 
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/13/143586152/airplane-mechanics-a-farm-team-for-everyone-else

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Overspeed, overspin, over and out......
 
I would like you to write a letter to the members explaining in detail how much better they are off than 20 years ago under the TWU watch and explain in detail how the concessions helped them and saved jobs and sign your real name so you can field questions if you are so sure about what you state.
 
If not,  Your points are meaningless and unsupported
 
If you need help ask: Videtich,Little,Gless, maybe even Vanderloo

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I am not alone in saying "I am much worse off than I was 20 years ago with the TWU"  
TWU "your fired"

 

[AANOTOK]

I am not alone in saying "I am much worse off than I was 20 years ago with the TWU"  
TWU "your fired"

I don't think there is any doubt that "all" TWU represented work groups at AA are worse off than they were twenty years ago. Regardless of how many times we (Fleet) are told by some that we are at or near the top of the industry payscale, every single member took hits, and every single member has yet to come close to getting back what they lost...I have said it before and I will say it again, without mentioning every hit you guys took, one that just floors me is a (any) union would allow any company to put language in a contract that only allows partial pay for a sick day. It simply amazes me...While I wish you guys good luck in ridding yourself of the TWU, I really do think it's gonna be a hard battle to win.

 

[WeAAsles]

For unions today in old economy industries like airlines, steel and autos, the harsh reality is that labor contracts are, to paraphrase Lenin’s view of treaties – like pie crusts made to be broken.  In case after case, bankruptcy courts have applied Congressional intent favoring long-term rehabilitation to sweep aside wage and benefits concessions won at the bargaining table. 

Organized labor is beleaguered – a fraction of their former strength in the private sector, divided by inter-generational warfare between retirees and current employees,  with fewer friends on Capitol Hill, and facing the harsh reality that the victories won by legendary figures like the UAW’s Walter Ruether are unsustainable in today’s economy.  Indeed, unions in these core sectors of the economy are facing threats to their institutional survival.
 
The new world order in bankruptcies such as United Airlines, Northwest Airlines and Delphi is doubtless a bitter pill to swallow for union leaders, employees and retirees, who clearly believed their companies made solemn promises on wages and benefits, and now have no place to go.  Strike threats ring hollow when the company can show the entire enterprise will crater without a new deal.  A more labor-friendly Congress or President might help, but even new laws cannot change the economic reality of unsparing global competition.  Others call for greater imagination on the part of both management and union leaders, to think beyond the duration of a short-term labor contract.

 
In the face of a harsh bargaining climate, where the steady gains over the past five decades are at risk, what can unions do to counter these pressures?  What are the prospects for the middle-class with organized labor in retreat?  And what of the future for the growing segment of service workers who now predominate over union workers in manufacturing and transportation?  These are the critical questions defying easy answers in this brave new world of the new economy.

http://www.abiworld.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=41342

 

[Rogallo]

Overspeed, overspin, over and out......
 
I would like you to write a letter to the members explaining in detail how much better they are off than 20 years ago under the TWU watch and explain in detail how the concessions helped them and saved jobs and sign your real name so you can field questions if you are so sure about what you state.
 
If not,  Your points are meaningless and unsupported
 
If you need help ask: Videtich,Little,Gless, maybe even Vanderloo

 
 

I am not alone in saying "I am much worse off than I was 20 years ago with the TWU"  
TWU "your fired"

 
Here comes the only thing underspeed is good at......a sarcastic delusional reply!

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed, overspin, over and out......
 
I would like you to write a letter to the members explaining in detail how much better they are off than 20 years ago under the TWU watch and explain in detail how the concessions helped them and saved jobs and sign your real name so you can field questions if you are so sure about what you state.
 
If not,  Your points are meaningless and unsupported
 
If you need help ask: Videtich,Little,Gless, maybe even Vanderloo

 
Will you be writing the letter explaining how all the NW AMFA, AS OAK AMFA, and UA AMFA members who lost their jobs are better off than they were twenty years ago? Your request for a letter explaining how union members at AA are better off than they were twenty years ago is a joke right? The only union members I could honestly say are better off than they were twenty years ago would be at WN and the few TWU members at AA (MCTs) that listened to the TWU ATD. And WN union members aren't better off because of AMFA. All union members at WN are better off at WN including the highest paid F/As in the industry (TWU members).
 
If we had listened to the TWU ATD reps in 2010 M&R would have been paid what you and your vote no coalition was willing to beg for in BK court in 2012! You guys are hacks who like to misdirect people from the truth. The truth that listening to your guys BS resulted in them falling even further back and preventing them from any incremental gains they could have had because you felt we should have gotten everything back in one shot. Well we didn't and now you have the audacity to attack one of the best pieces of contract language in the TWU CBA that no other union ever got in BK. The pay adjustment provision. If that hadn't made it in we would have been doomed to reading more misinformation on this blog how AMFA could have done better, if the TWU ATD/Intl reps you named weren't here your vote no coaltion would have taken us on strike and brought the company to its knees, and we would all have fat wallets loaded with AMFA provided cash! Wake up.

 

[Overspeed]

For unions today in old economy industries like airlines, steel and autos, the harsh reality is that labor contracts are, to paraphrase Lenin’s view of treaties – like pie crusts made to be broken.  In case after case, bankruptcy courts have applied Congressional intent favoring long-term rehabilitation to sweep aside wage and benefits concessions won at the bargaining table. 

Organized labor is beleaguered – a fraction of their former strength in the private sector, divided by inter-generational warfare between retirees and current employees,  with fewer friends on Capitol Hill, and facing the harsh reality that the victories won by legendary figures like the UAW’s Walter Ruether are unsustainable in today’s economy.  Indeed, unions in these core sectors of the economy are facing threats to their institutional survival.
 
The new world order in bankruptcies such as United Airlines, Northwest Airlines and Delphi is doubtless a bitter pill to swallow for union leaders, employees and retirees, who clearly believed their companies made solemn promises on wages and benefits, and now have no place to go.  Strike threats ring hollow when the company can show the entire enterprise will crater without a new deal.  A more labor-friendly Congress or President might help, but even new laws cannot change the economic reality of unsparing global competition.  Others call for greater imagination on the part of both management and union leaders, to think beyond the duration of a short-term labor contract.

 
In the face of a harsh bargaining climate, where the steady gains over the past five decades are at risk, what can unions do to counter these pressures?  What are the prospects for the middle-class with organized labor in retreat?  And what of the future for the growing segment of service workers who now predominate over union workers in manufacturing and transportation?  These are the critical questions defying easy answers in this brave new world of the new economy.

http://www.abiworld.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=41342

 
That is an excellent essay

 

[WeAAsles]

 
That is an excellent essay

Yea but it's reality. And as we can see, REALITY is completely ignored by many on here. It doesn't fit the agenda.

 

[Bob Owens]

There is no way the lump sum option is in the numbers you provided. And the APA is not the lowest paid and neither are we. How do you rationalize getting higher pay for a few AMTs on the line and overhaul at the expense of outsourcing jobs? Aren't those people's jobs important?
 
How many hours does it take to do a C Check on an MD80? Nothing when it's going to the desert.

So you are you claiming that the $315 figure for the pilots concessions does not include a value for the loss of the lump sum and the $330 million does not include our pension? Funny that you should mention the lump sum and attest that it was more of a loss than losing the DBP, because we once had that option as well, but 30 years prior to the pilots losing it we lost it.

How do you rationalize holding up the loss of 305 jobs as a betrayal of the profession when you voted to eliminate AFW and hundreds of jobs there so they could save a few heads in Tulsa. What makes the Tulsa job worth more than the AFW, DWH or MCI job? Why should Tulsa be immune to the realities of this industry and why should extreme concessions be demanded from everyone to preserve jobs in Tulsa while at the same time its accepted that employment at any other locations is subject to market or simply managements prerogative?

This has always been an industry subject to the economic cycle, layoffs happen, deep ones, concessions hasn't and never will stop that, eventually, as long as they are willing to relocate, everyone comes back. Every mechanic who was here in 2003 when we gave concessions and were laid off anyway had the opportunity to come back, the company has hired over 550 mechanics since 2003 while at the same time reducing overall headcount by nearly 4000 just in Title I. 140 mechanics have been added since AA filed for Bankruptcy. Hundreds chose to go the street rather than relocate, what does that tell you about the job? If concessions did save jobs, as you claim, despite the fact that over 4000 jobs have been eliminated along with the concessions with more on the way, is it worth the price of making it one that hundreds of people walk away from?

 

[Bob Owens]

Yea but it's reality. And as we can see, REALITY is completely ignored by many on here. It doesn't fit the agenda.

"old economy industries" well the Maritime industry is thousands of years older than the Airline industry. People navigated in hollowed out logs and skin covered canoes long before the wheel, let a lone the wing, was invented, yet workers in those industries have fared better than most. How do they do it? Simple, when they have a problem they make sure the employer also has a problem and when the employer has problems so does everyone who is reliant on the goods that get transported through their joint efforts.

Time after time what have we done when we had a problem? Did we make sure that the employer had problems? No, we complain and look for a savior but we don't do anything to make the boss believe there is a problem. Well if he knows he can take whatever he wants and he wont have problems then what do you expect he will do? He will continue to take until he does have problems. They aren't done taking, they wont stop, until there is a problem.

 

[Bob Owens]

ABI, an organization of lawyers who make billions by helping companies screw over their workers in bankruptcy. One of the board members belongs to the same firm as Marshall S Huester(Davis, Pol and Wardell) who testified against the pilots efforts to have Airline workers included under the RLA and sect 1167 in C-11 filings. No doubt they also coached the anti-labor politicians who also attacked the pilots efforts. Not exactly a pro-labor source. Sharon Levine is also part of the organization, she also makes millions off this scam. None of them want to see this scam end, they are all getting rich off it.

Such articles are written to make you feel powerless, "its inevitable" so you do not resist, its an old tactic and very effective. Millions who were subjected to such mind games simply walked into the showers.

 

[Bob Owens]

duplicate

 

[Overspeed]

So you are you claiming that the $315 figure for the pilots concessions does not include a value for the loss of the lump sum and the $330 million does not include our pension? Funny that you should mention the lump sum and attest that it was more of a loss than losing the DBP, because we once had that option as well, but 30 years prior to the pilots losing it we lost it.

How do you rationalize holding up the loss of 305 jobs as a betrayal of the profession when you voted to eliminate AFW and hundreds of jobs there so they could save a few heads in Tulsa. What makes the Tulsa job worth more than the AFW, DWH or MCI job? Why should Tulsa be immune to the realities of this industry and why should extreme concessions be demanded from everyone to preserve jobs in Tulsa while at the same time its accepted that employment at any other locations is subject to market or simply managements prerogative?

This has always been an industry subject to the economic cycle, layoffs happen, deep ones, concessions hasn't and never will stop that, eventually, as long as they are willing to relocate, everyone comes back. Every mechanic who was here in 2003 when we gave concessions and were laid off anyway had the opportunity to come back, the company has hired over 550 mechanics since 2003 while at the same time reducing overall headcount by nearly 4000 just in Title I. 140 mechanics have been added since AA filed for Bankruptcy. Hundreds chose to go the street rather than relocate, what does that tell you about the job? If concessions did save jobs, as you claim, despite the fact that over 4000 jobs have been eliminated along with the concessions with more on the way, is it worth the price of making it one that hundreds of people walk away from?

 
The TWU CBA protected more jobs that any other CBA. AMFA CBAs have lost far, far more.
 
Some jobs were saved with concessions.
 
Agree to disagree.