Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles
 
Just calculate the money the ramp pays the TWU add it to the $7MIL we in maintenance do and then ask your self why the TWU is holding OUR MONEY?
 
When I asked about walking a picket line how many companies have you worked for that it was necessary to walk the line. Not support walk, fight walk. Big difference there, the TWU has let my craft and craft career go into the toilet, NO Fight, just lies... I and others are tired of we'll getem next time....
 
I too walked with NWA and many others.
 
Now you don't have to wonder why we in Maintenance want the TWU GONE.

You speak for yourself. Not for all. And my God man. You also said how many other airlines you work for that are ALL gone. Seeing that if it's in your mind that the TWU sold you out why the hell do you think they did then? To survive maybe. And silly or not if you tell me that making over $30 an hour today is barely surviving I'll hit you over the head with a pot.

If anyone thinks otherwise we have some very different perspectives about things. Yes even those in my great former city of NY.

 

[Realityck]

Really?
 
 
As many of you are aware, our present TWU contract provides us with a wage adjustment next year (2015) that was designed to bring us up to the average of our peers. The TWU wants this to appear as a creative benefit that was provided for us. Your AMFA Organizers want you to know that this is far from the truth. The TWU is following AMFA’s lead at Alaska Airlines.
The following is an annual wage adjustment that was provided to the AMFA represented mechanics at Alaska Airlines. History shows that AMFA has a record of being at the forefront of implementing these types of ideas.
Even back in the 1960’s AMFA provided Ozark Airlines mechanics with the first license premium. This is the outside the box type of thinking we want to bring here to AA, and what we can expect from AMFA. As you will see below the Alaska formula is superior to ours.
 
[SIZE=18pt]ASA Annual Wage Review   [/SIZE]
 
On September 30th 2013, Alaska and AMFA met in accordance with the terms of Article 23, to initiate discussion for the annual wage review. Both sides reviewed and agreed to all data/information used in this review. This looks at Alaska’s (all in) wages compared to the seven carriers referred to in the contract.
 
Here are those rates;
 

1. SouthWest $43.89
2. Delta $38.28
3. JetBlue $30.00
4. Alaska $37.24
5. United $36.92
6. American $34.41
7. Frontier $32.37

 
With the mid point average being at $36.21 and AS being above that rate no additional increase was required, above the annual 1.5%. AMFA then went into an internal review.
Looking at the other work groups at Alaska and how they ranked with regard to their industry peers. AMFA mechanics at Alaska were rated (forth), AMFA then determined they should be at the same ranking as the other work groups at AS. With that said an additional 2.8% would be required to reflect this position (Third) for the Alaska mechanics.  We believe that this forward thinking approach is what provides the assurances our members require.
 
Note: that the TWU made us wait 3 years for a wage review in our 2012 CBA while AMFA negotiated a yearly wage review.

 
 
 
 
Let’s see, AMFA received a pay adjustment at Alaska which, according to you,  placed its members in the same position in the industry as all the other work groups at the carrier. In other words, they received the same treatment as everyone else  even after giving up all heavy overhaul and all plant maintenance. I am also not  sure who verified the figures you cite because the base plus license, plus line  premium figure at AA as of 9/12/2013 was 35.65 not 34.41.
 
 By way of comparison, the top out rate for an Alaska 737 Captain is 203.00 per  hour, while an AA 737 Captain tops out at 181.09. The obvious reason for the  difference is that AA is not even a year out of bankruptcy while Alaska has been a  healthy carrier for the last ten years. The same is true for the difference between  mechanic wages between AA and Alaska, which is, in fact, less than the gap  between pilot groups both in dollar amount and in terms of percentage. Both the  pilots and the mechanics will almost certainly go above the industry average by  September 2015 based on comparisons to United and Delta. Delta is already well  above 38.00 per hour and UAL has, according to press accounts and postings on  this Board, already offered the IBT more than that.
 
 AMFA has been through three bankruptcies that I am aware of – UAL, NWA, and  Mesaba. In no case was it able to bring its members on those carriers back to  anywhere close to industry standard at any time, much less within three years.  AMFA did not, in any of these bankruptcies, maintain the majority of aircraft  maintenance work in house as the TWU did.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

You speak for yourself. Not for all. And my God man. You also said how many other airlines you work for that are ALL gone. Seeing that if it's in your mind that the TWU sold you out why the hell do you think they did then? To survive maybe. And silly or not if you tell me that making over $30 an hour today is barely surviving I'll hit you over the head with a pot.

If anyone thinks otherwise we have some very different perspectives about things. Yes even those in my great former city of NY.

WeAAsles
 
I don't just speak for myself many mechanics feel the same way. It's also just not about the cash its all that has been given up by the TWU, for both maintenance and the stores/ramp/others here at AA.
 
When Union leaders put themselves before the members they are supposed to work for then it's Time for them to be removed. Our company has lead you and many others whom have only worked here at aa to believe that we need to survive and we won't do that unless you give in to what the company wants.  How many MILLions did aa have going into BK? Who do you think is paying for the new paint? Who gave the company the leverage it needed to get new aircraft the unions. Since I only need to remove mine which is the TWU that is my only care at this time. I have been a union guy my whole life. I know when the union is taking advantage of it's members. The TWU from top to bottom is loaded with scammers.
 
Most of The people who defend the TWU are part of the scam or have been and don't want to screw that for their pals in office today. Never having to show up to work, come and go at will. never around when they are needed. If you have been here long enough I know you have seen it too.
 
If there was a way to get out from all the bs of the TWU for YOU and your fellow workers, would YOU? Don't you want the choice? Shouldn't you have a say in which union you want? That is what we the mechanics want. If we fail it will be our fault and we will have no one to blame. But I will say we can get rid of the Top leather chair sitters as you put it when they don't dork for our best interest at AMFA. can't do that with the TWU or the IAM or IBT.

 

[WeAAsles]

Looking at a news item regarding AMFA getting a contract at Alaska it said that Alaska had

135 Aircraft
626 Members

AA (standalone) today

630 Aircraft
7731 Members

Alaska has less than 5 mechanics per aircraft while AA still maintains over 10 per aircraft. In that case to be equal in pay rates to the AA mechanic shouldn't AMFA members at Alaska be making double the rate or over $70 per hour?

 

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles
 
I don't just speak for myself many mechanics feel the same way. It's also just not about the cash its all that has been given up by the TWU, for both maintenance and the stores/ramp/others here at AA.
 
When Union leaders put themselves before the members they are supposed to work for then it's Time for them to be removed. Our company has lead you and many others whom have only worked here at aa to believe that we need to survive and we won't do that unless you give in to what the company wants.  How many MILLions did aa have going into BK? Who do you think is paying for the new paint? Who gave the company the leverage it needed to get new aircraft the unions. Since I only need to remove mine which is the TWU that is my only care at this time. I have been a union guy my whole life. I know when the union is taking advantage of it's members. The TWU from top to bottom is loaded with scammers.
 
Most of The people who defend the TWU are part of the scam or have been and don't want to screw that for their pals in office today. Never having to show up to work, come and go at will. never around when they are needed. If you have been here long enough I know you have seen it too.
 
If there was a way to get out from all the bs of the TWU for YOU and your fellow workers, would YOU? Don't you want the choice? Shouldn't you have a say in which union you want? That is what we the mechanics want. If we fail it will be our fault and we will have no one to blame. But I will say we can get rid of the Top leather chair sitters as you put it when they don't dork for our best interest at AMFA. can't do that with the TWU or the IAM or IBT.

Sorry Amfaman. We don't look at things through the same set of glasses I guess. And I'm not anyone of any importance whatsoever. Not even a Steward, just a ramper. Not looking for any chairs or even pats on the back. No buddies in high places that ask me for anything. Not even a birthday card or a gift certificate to Chili's.

I don't see the BS as much as you think you see so I guess my answer is no. I'm not a big fan of changing out hats once I already have one I like. I guess I like the logo. 

If you get the cards you will have that choice. As blue collar brothers I wish you the best in your choices.

 

[Overspeed]

Pioneering??? ...... Sorry, gonna call BS on this one.
 
American Airlines was only one of several airlines involved in the initial FAA programs, at that time called demonstration ASAPs.

It's true. The first ASAP program started with the AA APA in 1994. The first mechanic program was started by the TWU at AA in 1998. We even were honored by the White House. Pretty cool especially since we aren't a "professional" union like AMFA.

American Airlines' ASAP Program Honored at White House.


Link to this page


FORT WORTH, Texas, Jan. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- President Clinton and FAA Administrator Jane Garvey today applauded one of American Airlines' innovative aviation safety programs as a model that will be implemented industrywide.

American Airlines Chairman Don Carty joined Clinton, Garvey, Allied Pilots Association President Rich LaVoy and Mark D'Angelis, from the Transport Workers Union representing AA mechanics and dispatchers, in a White House ceremony for the announcement.

The program, called the Aviation Safety Action Partnership, or ASAP, was developed at American in 1994 in close collaboration with the APA and the Federal Aviation Administration. In 1998, the program was expanded to include aircraft mechanics and airline dispatchers.

ASAP encourages pilots and mechanics to voluntarily report any incident that might raise a safety concern or any circumstances where safety might have been compromised. A team of representatives from the airline, the union and the FAA then reviews the events.

"With the unions' encouragement and cooperation, this program has been a huge success," Carty said. "During the past five years, a large number of voluntary reports have been made by employees -- either through American's computer system or through a special telephone hotline -- and those reports have solved or helped prevent many actual or potential safety problems.

"The ASAP program is a model of what can be done when business, labor and an enlightened government agency work together positively," Carty said. "Without question, the outstanding leadership of Jane Garvey at the FAA has allowed this and other safety initiatives to thrive."

Everyone connected with the program believes that an open sharing of information disclosing possible violations, combined with a cooperative, non- punitive approach to solving problems, enhances and promotes aviation safety. The resolution of reported events has reflected emphasis on correcting the problems rather than punitive action against the pilot, Carty said.

Current AMR Corp. (NYSE: AMR) press releases can be accessed via the Internet. The Company's address is http://www.amrcorp.com/corpcomm.htm.
COPYRIGHT 2000 PR Newswire Association LLC
No portion of this article can be reproduced without the express written permission from the copyright holder.

 

[1AA]

Looking at a news item regarding AMFA getting a contract at Alaska it said that Alaska had

135 Aircraft
626 Members

AA (standalone) today

630 Aircraft
7731 Members

Alaska has less than 5 mechanics per aircraft while AA still maintains over 10 per aircraft. In that case to be equal in pay rates to the AA mechanic shouldn't AMFA members at Alaska be making double the rate or over $70 per hour?

 

Where did you learn your math? Funny math high?
Alaska AMT's make more money and better benefits and only maintain one fleet type of aircraft. AA AMT's make less money with multiple fleets. We should be making more than Alaska by your logic. We have more A/C to maintain and more types which means more qualifications. The difference is that Alaska AMT's are better represented than AA AMT's. That is a fact based on their pay and benefits. Are we better or worse in pay and benefits? Hint: We are represented by the TWU. And the answer Alex is????

 

[1AA]

It's true. The first ASAP program started with the AA APA in 1994. The first mechanic program was started by the TWU at AA in 1998. We even were honored by the White House. Pretty cool especially since we aren't a "professional" union like AMFA.

American Airlines' ASAP Program Honored at White House.


Link to this page


FORT WORTH, Texas, Jan. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- President Clinton and FAA Administrator Jane Garvey today applauded one of American Airlines' innovative aviation safety programs as a model that will be implemented industrywide.

American Airlines Chairman Don Carty joined Clinton, Garvey, Allied Pilots Association President Rich LaVoy and Mark D'Angelis, from the Transport Workers Union representing AA mechanics and dispatchers, in a White House ceremony for the announcement.

The program, called the Aviation Safety Action Partnership, or ASAP, was developed at American in 1994 in close collaboration with the APA and the Federal Aviation Administration. In 1998, the program was expanded to include aircraft mechanics and airline dispatchers.

ASAP encourages pilots and mechanics to voluntarily report any incident that might raise a safety concern or any circumstances where safety might have been compromised. A team of representatives from the airline, the union and the FAA then reviews the events.

"With the unions' encouragement and cooperation, this program has been a huge success," Carty said. "During the past five years, a large number of voluntary reports have been made by employees -- either through American's computer system or through a special telephone hotline -- and those reports have solved or helped prevent many actual or potential safety problems.

"The ASAP program is a model of what can be done when business, labor and an enlightened government agency work together positively," Carty said. "Without question, the outstanding leadership of Jane Garvey at the FAA has allowed this and other safety initiatives to thrive."

Everyone connected with the program believes that an open sharing of information disclosing possible violations, combined with a cooperative, non- punitive approach to solving problems, enhances and promotes aviation safety. The resolution of reported events has reflected emphasis on correcting the problems rather than punitive action against the pilot, Carty said.

Current AMR Corp. (NYSE: AMR) press releases can be accessed via the Internet. The Company's address is http://www.amrcorp.com/corpcomm.htm.
COPYRIGHT 2000 PR Newswire Association LLC
No portion of this article can be reproduced without the express written permission from the copyright holder.

That was then, Today we have that In Accordance With accountability that has left the AMT out in the cold. In other words the company has left all responsibility to each individual to fight for themselves if they get in a bind. 

 

[Overspeed]

Where did you learn arithmetic? Funny math high?
Alaska AMT's make more money and better benefits and only maintain one fleet type of aircraft. AA AMT's make less money with multiple fleets. We should be making more than Alaska by your logic. We have more A/C to maintain and more types which means more qualifications. The difference is that Alaska AMT's are better represented than AA AMT's. That is a fact based on their pay and benefits. Are we better or worse in pay and benefits? Hint: We are represented by the TWU. And the answer Alex is????

The answer is AS hasn't overhaul to speak of. AMFA allowed it to go without much more than a "that sucks!" Are you saying the TWU should allow all overhaul to be outsourced in exchange for higher pay? It is the total cost of the contract brother. AA would gladly accept the entire AMFA contract.

 

[Overspeed]

That was then, Today we have that In Accordance With accountability that has left the AMT out in the cold. In other words the company has left all responsibility to each individual to fight for themselves if they get in a bind.

IAW is about accountability that was instituted by the FAA. Many airlines have been using IAW programs for years. Are you asking to be exempted from the FARs?

And you still have ASAP and license protection. You are fine, don't panic. You aren't on your own, do the same good job as always and you will be fine.

 

[1AA]

The answer is AS hasn't overhaul to speak of. AMFA allowed it to go without much more than a "that sucks!" Are you saying the TWU should allow all overhaul to be outsourced in exchange for higher pay? It is the total cost of the contract brother. AA would gladly accept the entire AMFA contract.

Haven't you noticed? Overhaul is shrinking day by day thanks to all the guys that listened to guys like you to vote yes and save jobs. Again you pit overhaul versus line. Did the TWU not negotiate a industry leading lower pay position know as SRP, OSM and Jr. mech? Did that save jobs? Instead of moving forward to improve our profession you again continue to play that overhaul for better pay record. What's next? The NWA strike? You should put your efforts on improving pay and benefits instead of dividing the membership with scare tactics and telling lies to the overhaul folks that the line guys want to throw them to the dogs.

 

[WeAAsles]

Where did you learn your math? Funny math high?
Alaska AMT's make more money and better benefits and only maintain one fleet type of aircraft. AA AMT's make less money with multiple fleets. We should be making more than Alaska by your logic. We have more A/C to maintain and more types which means more qualifications. The difference is that Alaska AMT's are better represented than AA AMT's. That is a fact based on their pay and benefits. Are we better or worse in pay and benefits? Hint: We are represented by the TWU. And the answer Alex is????

Hey wait a minute here, I'm just using your playbook. You guys don't like it when the TWU side throws in all those pesky little facts and figures that don't suit the agenda. What's the matter if I do the same thing?

Next thing you know you're going to tell me that Alaska has constantly been making money and never went through BK so that's why there guys are making more per hour too. Or you just might throw this little unfair tidbit at me?
 
Megamergers, most recently of US Airways and American Airlines, have redrawn the boundaries of domestic carriers, concentrating the business as never before. Alaska Airlines, for its part, has cultivated staunch independence. Unlike carriers that have faced bankruptcy or acquisition, Alaska has turned a profit for 33 of the last 39 years. In 2012, it had a record $316 million in net income, up 29 percent from 2011.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/business/alaska-airlines-flying-above-an-industrys-troubles.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

It's true. The first ASAP program started with the AA APA in 1994. The first mechanic program was started by the TWU at AA in 1998. We even were honored by the White House. Pretty cool especially since we aren't a "professional" union like AMFA.

 
So in other words you freely admit your previous post was completely disingenuous, as your TWU was neither Pioneering nor Leading the charge of the ASAP program.

 

[Overspeed]

So in other words you freely admit your previous post was completely disingenuous, as your TWU was neither Pioneering nor Leading the charge of the ASAP program.

No I was on the mark. You were wrong. The TWU was the first for mechanics. That is leading the charge and pioneering for mechanics.

The White House honored the APA and the TWU not any other union at all. One is for pilots and the other mechanics. Every other mechanic ASAP program is based off of the pioneering work done by the TWU.

Thank you TWU.

 

[Overspeed]

Haven't you noticed? Overhaul is shrinking day by day thanks to all the guys that listened to guys like you to vote yes and save jobs. Again you pit overhaul versus line. Did the TWU not negotiate a industry leading lower pay position know as SRP, OSM and Jr. mech? Did that save jobs? Instead of moving forward to improve our profession you again continue to play that overhaul for better pay record. What's next? The NWA strike? You should put your efforts on improving pay and benefits instead of dividing the membership with scare tactics and telling lies to the overhaul folks that the line guys want to throw them to the dogs.

Overhaul is shrinking but not out of existence and you know it.

I'm not pitting overhaul versus line I'm saying we are one unionized work force and it is wrong to sacrifice overhaul for line. There has to be a better way than the way AMFA rolled on overhaul workers.

The SRP job was started as a result of the outsourcing that was growing industry wide in the early 90s.