Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[WeAAsles]

And to add, American is also bound by law to enforce the current agreement if we have NO union.

They are???? Really????  So if you voted for a No Union option in the future, AA has to honor the past CBA even though there is no longer any group in place to enforce it.

Maybe I'm wrong what I'm thinking? Can you copy and paste that law for me?

 

[WeAAsles]

"Note: that the TWU made us wait 3 years for a wage review in our 2012 CBA while AMFA negotiated a yearly wage review."

Note: We were going through lower NYC Bankruptcy court for this so called 2012 CBA and we were not under Section 6 negotiations as the company was putting the gun to all of our temples. 

BANKRUPTCY remember that one. Even AMFA went through one of them and it was not at Alaska Airlines. 

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Chuck I like this. I really do. I think it's very important to know the base rate that our peers are earning yearly. But what about all the other associated costs?

What is the actual value to each individual member. IE pay and benefits in connection to their peers?

What is the overall total cost to the company for each member as a percentage to their peers and their fleet size?

How many members on average are at the top out rate and how long does it take to reach that scale in comparison to the industry average?

How much work is within the parameters of each individual companies SCOPE and how many professionals are actually performing those functions?

What is the ability of the companies to farm out work and what percentages of work continue to remain in house in comparison to the industry as a whole?

It's beyond easy to quote the base rate and you know that I know you know this very well. (That was a little out there) C'mon Chuck from when I was on here in the past with you. Is this really the way that you would want your team to win the fight? Because from the things I've read lately that's all this seems like to me. We want to win!!!!    

WeAAsles
 
Your response is one typically asked by the supporters of the TWU, if the TWU has done so well then why don't you show us just how great the TWU has done.
 
The TWU at one time had a 12yrs to top rate, the TWU started the industry "B" scale.
 
As far as scope in aircraft maintenance we have lost so much its sickening.
 
AA has a new fleet and the number of aircraft we have is because we the employees have given up so much at the hands of the TWU.
 
Since you support the TWU show us how we rate in comparison with our peers at three other carriers. Start with pay, vacation, health benefits, then show how the TWU is going to keep the company from outsourcing the aircraft maintenance now that our aircraft are all new or will be for the most part. 
 
The jobs for dues has been a TWU industrial union speech for so long. WE saved jobs is the scam you and the TWU spill but how many mechanics have been lost in the last 10+ yrs?
 
You work the ramp if I am not mistaken, how many of your side of the TWU are no longer full time and how many are working 40+ hrs at more than one job?

 

[Overspeed]

Really?
 
 
As many of you are aware, our present TWU contract provides us with a wage adjustment next year (2015) that was designed to bring us up to the average of our peers. The TWU wants this to appear as a creative benefit that was provided for us. Your AMFA Organizers want you to know that this is far from the truth. The TWU is following AMFA’s lead at Alaska Airlines.
The following is an annual wage adjustment that was provided to the AMFA represented mechanics at Alaska Airlines. History shows that AMFA has a record of being at the forefront of implementing these types of ideas.
Even back in the 1960’s AMFA provided Ozark Airlines mechanics with the first license premium. This is the outside the box type of thinking we want to bring here to AA, and what we can expect from AMFA. As you will see below the Alaska formula is superior to ours.
 
[SIZE=18pt]ASA Annual Wage Review   [/SIZE]
 
On September 30th 2013, Alaska and AMFA met in accordance with the terms of Article 23, to initiate discussion for the annual wage review. Both sides reviewed and agreed to all data/information used in this review. This looks at Alaska’s (all in) wages compared to the seven carriers referred to in the contract.
 
Here are those rates;
 

1. SouthWest $43.89
2. Delta $38.28
3. JetBlue $30.00
4. Alaska $37.24
5. United $36.92
6. American $34.41
7. Frontier $32.37

 
With the mid point average being at $36.21 and AS being above that rate no additional increase was required, above the annual 1.5%. AMFA then went into an internal review.
Looking at the other work groups at Alaska and how they ranked with regard to their industry peers. AMFA mechanics at Alaska were rated (forth), AMFA then determined they should be at the same ranking as the other work groups at AS. With that said an additional 2.8% would be required to reflect this position (Third) for the Alaska mechanics.  We believe that this forward thinking approach is what provides the assurances our members require.
 
Note: that the TWU made us wait 3 years for a wage review in our 2012 CBA while AMFA negotiated a yearly wage review.

 
Not a bad deal considering the only had to give up half their membership to get that language at and airline that wasn't in even BK.
 
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Alaska-Air-shuts-Oakland-base-340-maintenance-2726556.php
 
Alaska representatives broke the news to Oakland mechanics in an early afternoon meeting in the base's break room, said Earl Clark, one of the technicians and an officer with the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. The company, he said, gave no warning that the base would be shut down.
"We got a lot of people who didn't see it coming," Clark said. "And right now, they're very shell-shocked."

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
Not a bad deal considering the only had to give up half their membership to get that language at and airline that wasn't in even BK.
 
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Alaska-Air-shuts-Oakland-base-340-maintenance-2726556.php
 
Alaska representatives broke the news to Oakland mechanics in an early afternoon meeting in the base's break room, said Earl Clark, one of the technicians and an officer with the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. The company, he said, gave no warning that the base would be shut down.
"We got a lot of people who didn't see it coming," Clark said. "And right now, they're very shell-shocked."

 
O/S
 
No matter when or how it is done when the company closes a station or dock the employees are out of a job. Either move to a new station or hit the street.
 
I hope that all the AFW guys and StL and kansas City mechanics feel that the TWU did their best to keep them working. What are you and the TWU supporters going to tell the Tulsa Base mechanics as they shut down docks, due to new aircraft and checks no longer being required since lease agreements with Airbus and Boeing will allow the company to turn in aircraft at MBV time.
 
We are going to see what happens as we go forward aren't we then we will see just how you spin that. Now that the TWU is loosing its members due to economics.
 
It's pretty bad when TWU leaders put the Union itself before the members. Backwards don't you think? Since we all have heard that we the members are the union. But with the TWU we don't get much say and when we ask what/when/how, we just get they can do that brother or some other bs answer.
 
The TWU leaders got rich, why shouldn't we as well. They got lots of money for the job they did, we the mechanics should get lots of money/benefits whatever for what we do as well. our families deserve that don't you think?
 
The TWU leaders should respect the wishes of the members and fight to comply with their wishes, that is what they are paid to do.
The TWU works for us we don't work for the TWU.
 
When the leaders put themselves before the membership it's time for them to be REMOVED.
 
That is the facts and the case here at AA.

 

[Overspeed]

WeAAsles
 
Your response is one typically asked by the supporters of the TWU, if the TWU has done so well then why don't you show us just how great the TWU has done.
 
The TWU at one time had a 12yrs to top rate, the TWU started the industry "B" scale.
 
As far as scope in aircraft maintenance we have lost so much its sickening.
 
AA has a new fleet and the number of aircraft we have is because we the employees have given up so much at the hands of the TWU.
 
Since you support the TWU show us how we rate in comparison with our peers at three other carriers. Start with pay, vacation, health benefits, then show how the TWU is going to keep the company from outsourcing the aircraft maintenance now that our aircraft are all new or will be for the most part. 
 
The jobs for dues has been a TWU industrial union speech for so long. WE saved jobs is the scam you and the TWU spill but how many mechanics have been lost in the last 10+ yrs?
 
You work the ramp if I am not mistaken, how many of your side of the TWU are no longer full time and how many are working 40+ hrs at more than one job?

 
Martin Seham (AMFA lawyer) started it with the APA. Seham's son represents (SC)AMFA.
 
Martin Seham wrote proudly of this accomplishment in Cleared for Takeoff: Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation.


As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in one of the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency.

—Martin C. Seham


 

 

[Overspeed]

 
O/S
 
No matter when or how it is done when the company closes a station or dock the employees are out of a job. Either move to a new station or hit the street.
 
I hope that all the AFW guys and StL and kansas City mechanics feel that the TWU did their best to keep them working. What are you and the TWU supporters going to tell the Tulsa Base mechanics as they shut down docks, due to new aircraft and checks no longer being required since lease agreements with Airbus and Boeing will allow the company to turn in aircraft at MBV time.
 
We are going to see what happens as we go forward aren't we then we will see just how you spin that. Now that the TWU is loosing its members due to economics.

 
But that is the difference. TUL work load may drop but due to the TWU scope clause as it goes back up, 65% must be kept in-house. More work on an aging fleet will bring the jobs back. Not true with (SC)AMFA CBA language. At SWA they on have to keep four airframe lines in-house past 622 aircraft. No other docks, engine shops, or component shops after 622 aircraft is passed. At AS and NW scope clauses that work is just plain gone and can never come back. The former AMFA workers at NW actually got a better deal from non-union DL as work was brought back in without (SC)AMFA.

 

[Rogallo]

 
TUL work load may drop but due to the TWU scope clause as it goes back up, 65% must be kept in-house.

 
When do you see that happening?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
Martin Seham (AMFA lawyer) started it with the APA. Seham's son represents (SC)AMFA.
 
Martin Seham wrote proudly of this accomplishment in Cleared for Takeoff: Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation.


As general counsel to the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent certified representative of the American Airlines pilots, I was close to the negotiations that resulted, in 1983, in one of the earliest realization of the two-tier system. APA was not faced with an insolvent or failing carrier; it was, however, forced to deal with an economic environment that had changed dramatically because of the effects of deregulation and was, by virtue of its independence, mandated to reach an agreement consistent with the needs and objectives of its constituency.

—Martin C. Seham


 

O/S
 
Martin Seham is no longer working in any capacity for AMFA, Lee is on retainer as any law firm can be. Just as a divorce lawyer works for anyone who pays so does the law firm of Seham.
 
They do not have a house lawyer like the TWU, and the TWU is using our money to fight its legal battles up and above the dues we pay them. That sounds like a SCAM to me. Which law firm are we at the TWU using now?

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Calling all TWU supporters........
 
stop blaming everyone else for the TWU failures.  if i am wrong,  detail all the great accomplishments the TWU has done for the careers of our class and craft and industry leading contract language.  before you throw stones defend your position for the TWU.
 
 

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles
 
Your response is one typically asked by the supporters of the TWU, if the TWU has done so well then why don't you show us just how great the TWU has done.

What's your definition of great with constant adversities to overcome within our industry from deregulation all the way down the line? They've done the best they can. Give me any other Union that has done as good or better in BK court? Who?
 
The TWU at one time had a 12yrs to top rate, the TWU started the industry "B" scale.

That's what I heard yes. But who sent the Presidents up there to bring that back and who voted on it? What you're not going to sell out the future for some sheckles as well? C'mon man give me a break.
 
As far as scope in aircraft maintenance we have lost so much its sickening.

Agreed. One gun to the back of the head that might have had bullets and one gun straight to the head that absolutely DID have bullets. From what I've read you did better than most in that area though even if it's costing you a couple of bucks for it.
 
AA has a new fleet and the number of aircraft we have is because we the employees have given up so much ///////// at the hands of a crappy deal being in this industry.

Partially absolutely.
 
Since you support the TWU show us how we rate in comparison with our peers at three other carriers. Start with pay, vacation, health benefits, then show how the TWU is going to keep the company from outsourcing the aircraft maintenance now that our aircraft are all new or will be for the most part.

I don't know that's why I'm asking you guys? Your the one trying to sell people a product they don't have at the moment. Not me. 

As for the second part. I don't see how they can? As new aircraft come online and need less maintenance they'll need less people. I can't stand that thought any more than you do. But if I buy a new car it's going to need less work than my 98 Mustang. That's reality.
 
 
The jobs for dues has been a TWU industrial union speech for so long. WE saved jobs is the scam you and the TWU spill but how many mechanics have been lost in the last 10+ yrs?

I'm not pulling any scam on anyone. Tons of jobs have been lost. As we have less planes that happens. Less work means less people even without the changes to SCOPE.
 
You work the ramp if I am not mistaken, how many of your side of the TWU are no longer full time and how many are working 40+ hrs at more than one job?

On the first part not as many as you think because a lot of people packed it in and left. A lot left with the EBO. As for working extra hours I'd say almost everyone. But why am I going to blame ANY union for all of that? The industry has used every tool imaginable to decimate us. Because they wanted to or had to depends on who you ask? Deregulation, oil prices, competition, internet fares, global pandemics, global economic collapse......  What else did I leave out?

 

WeAAsles
 
Your response is one typically asked by the supporters of the TWU, if the TWU has done so well then why don't you show us just how great the TWU has done.
 
The TWU at one time had a 12yrs to top rate, the TWU started the industry "B" scale.
 
As far as scope in aircraft maintenance we have lost so much its sickening.
 
AA has a new fleet and the number of aircraft we have is because we the employees have given up so much at the hands of the TWU.
 
Since you support the TWU show us how we rate in comparison with our peers at three other carriers. Start with pay, vacation, health benefits, then show how the TWU is going to keep the company from outsourcing the aircraft maintenance now that our aircraft are all new or will be for the most part. 
 
The jobs for dues has been a TWU industrial union speech for so long. WE saved jobs is the scam you and the TWU spill but how many mechanics have been lost in the last 10+ yrs?
 
You work the ramp if I am not mistaken, how many of your side of the TWU are no longer full time and how many are working 40+ hrs at more than one job?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
But that is the difference. TUL work load may drop but due to the TWU scope clause as it goes back up, 65% must be kept in-house. More work on an aging fleet will bring the jobs back. Not true with (SC)AMFA CBA language. At SWA they on have to keep four airframe lines in-house past 622 aircraft. No other docks, engine shops, or component shops after 622 aircraft is passed. At AS and NW scope clauses that work is just plain gone and can never come back. The former AMFA workers at NW actually got a better deal from non-union DL as work was brought back in without (SC)AMFA.

O/S
 
Typical spin when do you think the company will redo the lease turn in program to bring the MBV checks back to Tulsa or even any of the US O/H bases that are left after the single carrier status has been determined?
 
That work is just plain gone as well you just won't admit it. OH maybe you don't want too either since then it would ruin your Good Ole boys club of SCAMMERS.

 

[Overspeed]

O/S
 
Martin Seham is no longer working in any capacity for AMFA, Lee is on retainer as any law firm can be. Just as a divorce lawyer works for anyone who pays so does the law firm of Seham.
 
They do not have a house lawyer like the TWU, and the TWU is using our money to fight its legal battles up and above the dues we pay them. That sounds like a SCAM to me. Which law firm are we at the TWU using now?

 
The same one that has been protecting TWU AMTs in the license protection and ASAP when they get in trouble with the FAA. Did you know that the all AMTs now participating in ASAP have the TWU to thank for pioneering this great safety program? If you have submitted an ASAP report than you would know how well it works and that the old way of fines, revocations, and fear that inhibited coming up with real solutions to safety problems. The TWU legal counsel helped write the program as it is currently applied to AMTs and now AMFA and IBT AMTs can thank the TWU for leading the charge for improved air safety and protecting AMT licenses at the same time.
 
Thanks TWU and thanks TWU legal counsel!
 
American Airlines, Transport Workers Union Announce FAA Renewal of Mechanics Aviation Safety Action Program


 
For the First Time Program Includes 'Just Culture' Provisions to Enhance Analysis of Root Causes of Events and Possible Mishaps Rather than Only Reported Incidents
 
 
FORT WORTH, Texas, June 4 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- American Airlines, in conjunction with the Transport Workers Union of America (TWU), today announced the renewal by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), of the Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP) for American's mechanics.
American and TWU have had a program in place for 11 years and with the FAA approved renewal of the program, ASAP will be extended for two more years. The TWU/American Airlines ASAP maintenance program is the longest running in U.S. commercial aviation.
 
ASAP is a safety partnership organized by American, the union, and the FAA, designed to encourage employees to voluntarily report safety-related information. The reports help identify potential precursors to serious safety incidents. For the first time in the program's history, the ASAP program will now have a "Just Culture" provision that will go beyond specific incidents and explore the systems, policies and procedures that may have contributed to an event or a possible incident.
 
"The benefits of having ASAP programs in place for our mechanics, as well as our flight attendants, dispatchers, and pilots cannot be overstated," said Peggy Sterling, American's Vice President - Safety, Security & Environmental. "The process is an incentive for employees to disclose issues that might not otherwise come to light, which then gives the company, the FAA, and the union the opportunity to analyze and respond to potential safety issues proactively."
 
According to Robert Gless, the AA System Coordinator and Assistant Director of TWU's Air Transport Division, "When it comes to passenger safety and security programs we stand shoulder to shoulder with American. We are very proud that our ASAP program is a model for the entire industry."
The information gathered in the ASAP reports will be analyzed jointly by an American representative, a representative from the TWU, and the FAA in order to develop and implement effective solutions to possible safety concerns. Addressing prospective safety concerns is essential to reducing future accidents and incidents.
 
The program is designed for employees to report safety-related issues through a non-punitive reporting process. Participation in ASAP is voluntary and confidential.

 

[WeAAsles]

Calling all TWU supporters........
 
stop blaming everyone else for the TWU failures.  if i am wrong,  detail all the great accomplishments the TWU has done for the careers of our class and craft and industry leading contract language.  before you throw stones defend your position for the TWU.
 
 

You're right Chuck. Throwing stones isn't fair. There are no great accomplishments I can quote that would satisfy what you feel would not constitute failure. You won't talk about what happened to AMFA at NWA so tell you what. Forget the TWU or AMFA. Give me one airline union that has been rolling in the field of accomplishments since 1978?

Who's the real winner out there before you go and look to make the change you feel can turn that around?

 

[Overspeed]

O/S
 
Typical spin when do you think the company will redo the lease turn in program to bring the MBV checks back to Tulsa or even any of the US O/H bases that are left after the single carrier status has been determined?
 
That work is just plain gone as well you just won't admit it. OH maybe you don't want too either since then it would ruin your Good Ole boys club of SCAMMERS.

 
Leases are for ten years on some the A319/321 fleet. HC will be due before that time. Also many were purchased. The lie that is being spread by AMFA and weak TWU officers to scare TUL is just that ...a lie.
 
http://atwonline.com/airframes/american-airlines-buy-rather-lease-62-airbus-a320s