April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[cleardirect]

Blame the EAST pilots all our fault, you get more ridiculous as each day goes on. I believe were in front of a JUDGE, because someone filed yet another lawsuit that has no merit! USAPA's DOC 108 is a nice easy read, try it! MM!

Doc 108 is a circular argument mess.

Usapa is so screwed up they don't know which side of the argument they want to be on.

M/B arbitration is fair. A tri partite negotiation but the west can't have a seat. So who is the third party? But Nicolau is unfair.

You guys don't know which way to go.

How about you try and answer this question. What authority does the ad hoc committee have to negotiate?

 

[snapthis]

I know! How about a worldwide symposium where...Air line pilots.....come up with valuation system that takes a measurable and objective approach in establishing where a professional pilot ranks in the marketplace amongst ourselves. Oh that's right, airline pilots are too good for that.

It certainly is not the industry I saw in the 70's when I made the decision to pursue this career. Doctors, lawyers and airline pilots were top career choices. Start a dot.com like Kevin Laufer of Airline Forums or a social media site like Zuckerberg is the way to go these days.

Why hop on an airplane and meet-face-to face when you have Face....Book? Why talk when you can text?

It is what it is. Times change.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Plaintiffs’ attempt to equate ALPA merger policy with Section 13 arbitration has
no merit. They are not the same, and the ALPA merger policy is not the sine qua non of
either “a fair, neutral process” or a Section 3 “fair and equitable manner” for the
integration of seniority lists. The ALPA merger policy in Bernard required the
participation of the former Jet America pilots in negotiations to reach an integration
agreement because once the merger of Jet America and Alaska Airlines became effective,
ALPA became the recognized bargaining agent for the former Jet America pilots, and
therefore ALPA’s merger policy governing mergers in which ALPA was the recognized
bargaining agent for both pilot groups involved governed. Id. at 214-15. However, there
is no case law supporting a proposition that the procedures set forth in the ALPA merger
policy is the only “fair and equitable manner” for reaching seniority integration. 10 Indeed, the Nicolau Award was based on an ALPA policy that had never been adopted
or approved by the membership, that did not consider date-of-hire as a factor, and has
since been amended to include it. Plaintiffs’ claim in their complaint is that “USAPA . . . breached the duty of fair
representation by entering into the MOU with the firm intention of using a date-ofhire
seniority list rather than the Nicolau Award list.” Doc. 1 at ¶99. As discussed in
its motion to dismiss, that claim is not ripe for the same reasons that Plaintiffs’ first
and second DFR claims against USAPA were not ripe – that is, not until there is a
final merged seniority integration list with US Airways and American - does
Plaintiffs’ DFR claim as to USAPA’s conduct during negotiations for that list,
become ripe.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Doc 108 is a circular argument mess.

Usapa is so screwed up they don't know which side of the argument they want to be on.

M/B arbitration is fair. A tri partite negotiation but the west can't have a seat. So who is the third party? But Nicolau is unfair. The arguments advanced by Plaintiffs and US Airways to allow a different
representative for a portion of the pilots represented by USAPA would require the Court
to take the unprecedented step of violating USAPA’s status as the certified bargaining
representative of all US Airways pilots under Section 2, Ninth of the RLA and to
interfere with the exclusive jurisdiction of the National Mediation Board (NMB) over
representation matters. Such a step is truly unprecedented and Plaintiffs and US Airways
do not cite, nor is there, any case decided by the CAB or any Court, that authorizes
separate representation for a portion of a craft or class where, as here, an exclusive
bargaining representative has been certified by the NMB. As shown in our opening brief
on this point, Doc. 95 at 8, the McCaskill-Bond Amendment explicitly contemplates that
its seniority integration protections will be administered by the employees’ collective
bargaining representative. I guess the same authority your little spartans do at their end of the table! MM!

You guys don't know which way to go.

How about you try and answer this question. What authority does the ad hoc committee have to negotiate?

 

[Graceson]

It certainly is not the industry I saw in the 70's when I made the decision to pursue this career. Doctors, lawyers and airline pilots were top career choices. Start a dot.com like Kevin Laufer of Airline Forums or a social media site like Zuckerberg is the way to go these days.

Why hop on an airplane and meet-face-to face when you have Face....Book? Why talk when you can text?

It is what it is. Times change.

ALPA is so unlike the ABA or AMA. It should have made it its primary mission to reach for loftier heights after founded by men of foresight. Unfortunately the association transformed itself into a mere union with all the lesser appealing connotations. With this, prestige is lost to the ongoing struggle to defend and preserve self worth while at war with itself in a void of leadership who have neither the courage or foresight to evolve. So unlike the founding fathers.

With such distractions, the association gives way to a union mentality that can no longer keep pace with evolving management capable of exploiting the union's (not association) capacity to evolve.

How many species exist today because of the capacity to adapt and change when confronted by adversity? What's ALPA's trend over the last four decades?

A medical doctor can make a lateral move within his chosen specialty without depreciating experience by redoing a residency. A practiced attorney makes a lateral move without the need to start at the bottom as a lowly clerk.

A highly experienced airline pilot who is a member of a prestigious (??) National association receives the least regard in any lateral move. That is the festering disease and destabilizing inconsistency of the profession that exploitative management craves. There can never be unity in the absence of uniformity and consistency.

Without unity our collective energy is exhausted in redudent, individual, shortsighted, self-destructive processes that make the real career goal of dignity, prestige, and reward tainted and unsatisfying.

Just look at some of the language and regard displayed here indicative of the presence of disease.

AMA Mission Statement:


Our guiding principles set the aspirations that we endeavor to achieve:

AMA is one enterprise, highly capable, well coordinated and focused on high impact results.

AMA believes that there is a national imperative to chart a successful course for health care delivery that will improve the health of the nation.

AMA embraces the need for change and believes physician leadership is critical to the successful evolution of health care in a patient focused delivery system.

AMA will build on its legacy of leading physician ethics, setting standards for medical education, and advancing medical science to serve as the premier voice for the core values of the medical profession.

AMA has the unique combination of talent with practical skills and intellectual capabilities, the financial resources, and influential multi-sector relationships to be a leading voice in the transformation of health care.

The AMA has a robust House of Delegates consisting of representation from every State and medical society, a solid base of physician members, a thriving advocacy influence, the most revered journals and resources in medicine, and respected practice tools.

Together, we can shape a better, healthier future – not just for patients and physicians, but for the country as a whole.

 

[prechilill]

ALPA is so unlike the ABA or AMA. It should have made it its primary mission to reach for loftier heights after founded by men of foresight. Unfortunately the association transformed itself into a mere union with all the lesser appealing connotations. With this, prestige is lost to the ongoing struggle to defend and preserve self worth while at war with itself in a void of leadership who have neither the courage or foresight to evolve. So unlike the founding fathers.

With such distractions, the association gives way to a union mentality that can no longer keep pace with evolving management capable of exploiting the union's (not association) capacity to evolve.

How many species exist today because of the capacity to adapt and change when confronted by adversity? What's ALPA's trend over the last four decades?

A medical doctor can make a lateral move within his chosen specialty without depreciating experience by redoing a residency. A practiced attorney makes a lateral move without the need to start at the bottom as a lowly clerk.

A highly experienced airline pilot who is a member of a prestigious (??) National association receives the least regard in any lateral move. That is the festering disease and destabilizing inconsistency of the profession that exploitative management craves. There can never be unity in the absence of uniformity and consistency.

Without unity our collective energy is exhausted in redudent, individual, shortsighted, self-destructive processes that make the real career goal of dignity, prestige, and reward tainted and unsatisfying.

Just look at some of the language and regard displayed here indicative of the presence of disease.

AMA Mission Statement:


Our guiding principles set the aspirations that we endeavor to achieve:

AMA is one enterprise, highly capable, well coordinated and focused on high impact results.

AMA believes that there is a national imperative to chart a successful course for health care delivery that will improve the health of the nation.

AMA embraces the need for change and believes physician leadership is critical to the successful evolution of health care in a patient focused delivery system.

AMA will build on its legacy of leading physician ethics, setting standards for medical education, and advancing medical science to serve as the premier voice for the core values of the medical profession.

AMA has the unique combination of talent with practical skills and intellectual capabilities, the financial resources, and influential multi-sector relationships to be a leading voice in the transformation of health care.

The AMA has a robust House of Delegates consisting of representation from every State and medical society, a solid base of physician members, a thriving advocacy influence, the most revered journals and resources in medicine, and respected practice tools.

Together, we can shape a better, healthier future – not just for patients and physicians, but for the country as a whole.

Great post and I agree: DOH destroys careers. It makes lateral moves impossible and in fact rewards career stagnation like US Airways. 17 year FOs should never be placed anywhere around captains from another airline. DOH does exactly that.

 

[mrbreeze]

Great post and I agree: DOH destroys careers. It makes lateral moves impossible and in fact rewards career stagnation like US Airways. 17 year FOs should never be placed anywhere around captains from another airline. DOH does exactly that.

SWOOSH!!!
Right over your head!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Great post and I agree: DOH destroys careers. It makes lateral moves impossible and in fact rewards career stagnation like US Airways. 17 year FOs should never be placed anywhere around captains from another airline. DOH does exactly that.

SWOOSH!!!
Right over your head!

And why would ANYONE be surprised at that?

 

[traderjake]

Leave it to USAPA supporters to think that a guy who spent 17 years as a F/O has the same experience and worth as a guy who was a Captain for 17 years.

 

[mrbreeze]

Great post and I agree: DOH destroys careers. It makes lateral moves impossible and in fact rewards career stagnation like US Airways. 17 year FOs should never be placed anywhere around captains from another airline. DOH does exactly that.

Pre,

IMHO (for Dave )

What Graceson eloquently posted is that if ALPA were a national "union" and not just an association, we would all have national positions based on DOH. That would allow us to move laterally from one airline to another instead of having these bitter battles over SLI, along with not having to start at the bottom if we chose to take a job with a different airline.
breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

Leave it to USAPA supporters to think that a guy who spent 17 years as a F/O has the same experience and worth as a guy who was a Captain for 17 years.

SWOOSH!

Over your head too, eh?

 

[traderjake]

Over your head too, eh?

No, you're just not smart enough to know you're wrong.

 

[Freighterguynow]

you would know on both counts

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Leave it to USAPA supporters to think that a guy who spent 17 years as a F/O has the same experience and worth as a guy who was a Captain for 17 years.

Well looking at "YOU" as the poster child for that statement how could our fellow CLT pilots disagree?

 

[PullUp]

Leave it to USAPA supporters to think that a guy who spent 17 years as a F/O has the same experience and worth as a guy who was a Captain for 17 years.

Whoa. Didn't your airline hire only 'captains'? I would put the decision making capability, judgement, and experience level of any 17 year F/O up against any 17 year captain. The only difference would be which seat they are sitting in and the size of their paycheck.
Sheesh.