April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Metroyet]

Now you are starting to understand. Read the west filings. That is exactly what we said. Usapa has to stand back. East merger committee, west merger committee. Just like the APA will do.

Damn you a slow learner.

This is exactly the issue that USAPA has never wrapped their minds around. When Symanski is referring to "His Client" who is that exactly?

 

[Pi brat]

Of course they don't. MB clearly does not cover transactions prior to it becoming law. I don't think Silver is even slightly aware of what MB actually is. Hence, the briefs. I think the 3 way idea is going to drop dead. What's wrong with letting a neutral 3rd party decide which list USAPA can use once and for all? Arbitration is the "gold standard" for fairness when parties can't agree. There's thousands of arbitrations going on all across the country in a multitude of industries public and private. The goal is the same. A fair and equitable outcome.

You don't want that?

Not after the Nicolau disaster, no I don't.

We all agreed on a process to end our stalemate. You guys aren't backing out of a previously agreed on process, are you? That be.....hypocritical of you.

 

[Pi brat]

This is exactly the issue that USAPA has never wrapped their minds around. When Symanski is referring to "His Client" who is that exactly?

USAPA, not a PHX LLC. That was easy.

 

[Metroyet]

East list, west list, AA list. USAPA merger committee and attorney, APA merger committee and attorney.

I'm going to form a LLC, Alienated Pilots of USAPA and demand my own seat at the table.

Damn you're an idiot.

It'll probably never happen, but why would you be opposed to the West having their own representation at the table? What's the harm? They had that under ALPA What's the big deal now? The East has been saying for years that USAPA can appoint West reps that can bind the entire group to some kind of settlement. Isn't this the same thing?

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA, not a PHX LLC. That was easy.

Whose paying him? How neutral is USAPAs hired legal cousel to the East and West issue?

 

[Metroyet]

Not after the Nicolau disaster, no I don't.

We all agreed on a process to end our stalemate. You guys aren't backing out of a previously agreed on process, are you? That be.....hypocritical of you.

You're grasping at straws if you think that "process" was to be used retroactively and applied to parties that were never named in your CBA. The new process is MB between US Air pilots and American pilots. There is no discussion whatsoever about East/West. The only thing Silver made solid agreement with was that this MOU was 100% neutral on seniority. Nobody agreed to anything East and West. Either side.

 

[Pi brat]

It'll probably never happen, but why would you be opposed to the West having their own representation at the table? What's the harm? They had that under ALPA What's the big deal now? The East has been saying for years that USAPA can appoint West reps that can bind the entire group to some kind of settlement. Isn't this the same thing?

Because they will intentionally stymie any efforts at a negotiated settlement and force it to arbitration. I think the odds are that it will end up there anyway, but we should try to come to a settlement.

 

[Pi brat]

You're grasping at straws if you think that "process" was to be used retroactively and applied to parties that were never named in your CBA. The new process is MB between US Air pilots and American pilots. There is no discussion whatsoever about East/West. The only thing Silver made solid agreement with was that this MOU was 100% neutral on seniority. Nobody agreed to anything East and West. Either side.

It spells it our very clearly. I'm not a member of the group that voted 97% for the MOU and THEN decided that it was illegal. Integrity in action, again.

 

[Pi brat]

Whose paying him? How neutral is USAPAs hired legal cousel to the East and West issue?

USAPA.

 

[Metroyet]

It spells it our very clearly. I'm not a member of the group that voted 97% for the MOU and THEN decided that it was illegal. Integrity in action, again.

So the pilots should never be allowed any contractual improvements ever? Didn't The East pilots cost everybody enough when they illegally walked away from negotiations in 2007? Money doesn't justify a yes vote? You know USAPA was NEVER going to get any kind of improvements for anybody barring the help of another merger. The only No voters were guys that thought you CoC was worth more than 1.6 billion. Many airlines are on their SECOND contract since USAPA showed up. All TOS narrowbody FO's make about 7+ grand a year more than your TOS captains. What's wrong with getting some financial relief and moving seniority out of the picture....which is exactly what happened.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA.

Whose paying USAPA?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

It'll probably never happen, but why would you be opposed to the West having their own representation at the table? What's the harm? They had that under ALPA What's the big deal now? The East has been saying for years that USAPA can appoint West reps that can bind the entire group to some kind of settlement. Isn't this the same thing?

Because your not a collective bargaining agent under the law! And NO, participating in a process is not feces threw the mail!

 

[Metroyet]

Because they will intentionally stymie any efforts at a negotiated settlement and force it to arbitration. I think the odds are that it will end up there anyway, but we should try to come to a settlement.

Every party at the table has the right to demand arbitration. If the West gets an independant seat at the table, I wouldn't characterize their desire for arbitration an act of interferring with a negotiated settlement any more than any other pilot group that has arbitrated their list....which is to say nearly ALL of them. What I think you're really saying is you're scared to death to put the West on a level playing field, give them actual rights, and allow for their fair representation. That's pretty much what I'm gathering from all the East opposition.

If DOH is within a wide range of reasonableness....despite the Nic award...then you have nothing to fear.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So the pilots should never be allowed any contractual improvements ever? Didn't The East pilots cost everybody enough when they illegally walked away from negotiations in 2007? Money doesn't justify a yes vote? You know USAPA was NEVER going to get any kind of improvements for anybody barring the help of another merger. The only No voters were guys that thought you CoC was worth more than 1.6 billion. Many airlines are on their SECOND contract since USAPA showed up. All TOS narrowbody FO's make about 7+ grand a year more than your TOS captains. What's wrong with getting some financial relief and moving seniority out of the picture....which is exactly what happened. The next financial relief will your base in PHX largely downsized or closed, its coming!

 

[Metroyet]

Because your not a collective bargaining agent under the law! And NO, participating in a process is not feces threw the mail!

So USAPA's argument that they can appoint West reps to bind the West to a settlement agreement is just as wrong because no matter what, the West will never be it's own collective bargaining agent. So that really leaves the West little choice doesn't it? Aside from your plan where you just insist upon dictating every possible term to them without any chance at fair representation. Pretty sure that hasn't gotten your group very far.