April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

You're right. USAPA should have told Silver to go pound sand...

They did. They told her why she is wrong, but must comply with what she tells them. My comment was TIC Mr. "I'm not involved".

BTW. A AOL ringleader agreed with USAPA that the west wouldn't have standing in MB.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

In addition to your facts, Southwest, Air Tran handled things without going to arbitration under the M/B laws.

Handled indeed. The Air Tran guys did not have scope to bargain with to obtain an MOU. You better believe the SWA CEO was aware of that when he went looking for merger partners!

Greeter

 

[Zone5]

That's a laugh. No doubt, the first available arbitrator would be Nicolau, since he isn't doing much these days.

Right! Talk about a non-starter!


seajay

 

[Bill Brasky]

The only M/B airline integration that I know of, that has actually gone to full arbitration was in the Republic Merger(s).
Let me count the airline groups in that process (and you tell me what unions/no unions represented each them)

Republic
Lynxx
Midwest Express
Frontier

Are just "three ways" illegal? What about "four ways?"

As to your objectives at the beginning, I believe you are in the company of many others who also may have not agreed with the exact final outcome. One methodology prevailed, and was voted on by all the members. Thence a new bargaining agent with an old outlook on seniority integrations.

Best,

Greeter

After looking at it, I think that M/B actually allows for a 3-way deal, but I'm not sure about the part of the law which allows unions to use their own system in circumstances where groups are represented by the same agent. I'm thinking that a 3-way may work, if it met the same criteria that ALPA has specified in their new merger policy, and the Nic is not allowed to be used.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like Republic really tried to shaft the ME guys.

 

[luvthe9]

Welcome to the pilotforums, ON2ALK.

More like Pysch ward. case study 101, your typical west nut job..... http://www.youtube.com/user/InternetTrashTalk

 

[Metroyet]

They did. They told her why she is wrong, but must comply with what she tells them. My comment was TIC Mr. "I'm not involved".

BTW. A AOL ringleader agreed with USAPA that the west wouldn't have standing in MB.

Of course they don't. MB clearly does not cover transactions prior to it becoming law. I don't think Silver is even slightly aware of what MB actually is. Hence, the briefs. I think the 3 way idea is going to drop dead. What's wrong with letting a neutral 3rd party decide which list USAPA can use once and for all? Arbitration is the "gold standard" for fairness when parties can't agree. There's thousands of arbitrations going on all across the country in a multitude of industries public and private. The goal is the same. A fair and equitable outcome.

You don't want that?

 

[Phoenix]

I didn't really look myself. It was a guess. It's been a long time. I know that. The 21st will be when the cards hit the table. Silver is cleary driving at something. She didn't forget her prior order, she knows current negotiations are filled with legal pitfalls and are mostly pointless. She's looking for something else.

That's all. I'm done. I'm no so interested that I'm going to waste 10 years on here like some. Good Luck.

Her recollection and interpritation of her prior order in October interesting, to say the least. Perhaps she didn't realize the 9th never ordered USAPA to bargain with a minority faction. Her presumption that she can is intriguing. And her line of questioning regarding what each side has done since her order is also intriguing.

Very interesting Silver feels priviledged to invent new negotiating forums and representatives unknown to the NMB or MB. We shall see.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Of course they don't. MB clearly does not cover transactions prior to it becoming law. I don't think Silver is even slightly aware of what MB actually is. Hence, the briefs. I think the 3 way idea is going to drop dead. What's wrong with letting a neutral 3rd party decide which list USAPA can use once and for all? Arbitration is the "gold standard" for fairness when parties can't agree. There's thousands of arbitrations going on all across the country in a multitude of industries public and private. The goal is the same. A fair and equitable outcome.

You don't want that?

Judge Silver is the neutral 3rd party, and she says that USAPA can use their list. Why can't you understand?

 

[Phoenix]

After looking at it, I think that M/B actually allows for a 3-way deal, but I'm not sure about the part of the law which allows unions to use their own system in circumstances where groups are represented by the same agent. I'm thinking that a 3-way may work, if it met the same criteria that ALPA has specified in their new merger policy, and the Nic is not allowed to be used.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like Republic really tried to shaft the ME guys.

We didn't vote to give up our CoC to let some scope-less, single base regional (not that there is anything wrong with that ) get the right to force APA into another Nic gamble.

 

[jetjok1]

It's really ironic, though. 13+ years and it still shows you as a "Newbie."

Sounds like time for a DFR against the moderators.

Lol!! Now that's funny!!

 

[Claxon]

Judge Silver is the neutral 3rd party, and she says that USAPA can use their list. Why can't you understand?

Oh, he understands. Kevin Horner was on the AWA merger comm.
He is just figuring out all the crap legal advice he, Mark Doyal, Ferguson, Vasin, Koontz and the rest of the Leonidas legal team was incredibly wrong. They are as clueless about RLA issues as Harper. Now they are going to pay the price.
Push Leonidas over the cliff while you can, then take a dump on what is left.

 

[Metroyet]

Judge Silver is the neutral 3rd party, and she says that USAPA can use their list. Why can't you understand?

Oh for God's sake. She NEVER said USAPA can use their DOH list without reprecussions. She said what the 9th said: USAPA is free to hang themselves if they want to. You are free to shout "Fire!" in a movie theatre too but don't count on your right to free speach to protect you. Same principle. Let's also not forget that Silver also stated, emphatically I might add, that the NIC was FAIR and she reiterated several times that the Union was willing to tread "dangerous ground" if abandoning it. USAPA has never understood what their roll actually is as a Labor Union. That's because it was formed for use as a weapon...the antethesis of their actual legal duties.

She can't force anybody to go to Arbitration. She can issue the Injunction as requested by the Plaintiffs or find it not ripe. Everybody but USAPA says it's ripe. Let's not forget that the company...the only Lawyer she let finish a sentence....is emphatic that the MOU is a new CBA. Which completes the TA requirements to implement the Nic. The TA was never amended to change the requirement to accept and implement the Nic. Just because USAPA demands it, doesn't make it so. Your C&BL's, internal BPR procedures, etc are all pointless irrelevant issues as far as the law is concerned. At least in the face of a Ripe DFR.

USAPA has a choice: Neither of them are palatable.

 

[Phoenix]

Oh for God's sake. She NEVER said USAPA can use their DOH list without reprecussions. She said what the 9th said: USAPA is free to hang themselves if they want to. You are free to shout "Fire!" in a movie theatre too but don't count on your right to free speach to protect you. Same principle. Let's also not forget that Silver also stated, emphatically I might add, that the NIC was FAIR and she reiterated several times that the Union was willing to tread "dangerous ground" if abandoning it. USAPA has never understood what their roll actually is as a Labor Union. That's because it was formed for use as a weapon...the antethesis of their actual legal duties.

She can't force anybody to go to Arbitration. She can issue the Injunction as requested by the Plaintiffs or find it not ripe. Everybody but USAPA says it's ripe. Let's not forget that the company...the only Lawyer she let finish a sentence....is emphatic that the MOU is a new CBA. Which completes the TA requirements to implement the Nic. The TA was never amended to change the requirement to accept and implement the Nic. Just because USAPA demands it, doesn't make it so. Your C&BL's, internal BPR procedures, etc are all pointless irrelevant issues as far as the law is concerned. At least in the face of a Ripe DFR.

USAPA has a choice: Neither of them are palatable.

Yes, these are all very good points.

Now, when would you like to discuss the standard of fairness to which USAPA is legally held to, and when would you like to demonstrate they have breached that standard of fairness?

 

[Metroyet]

Oh, he understands. Kevin Horner was on the AWA merger comm.
He is just figuring out all the crap legal advice he, Mark Doyal, Ferguson, Vasin, Koontz and the rest of the Leonidas legal team was incredibly wrong. They are as clueless about RLA issues as Harper. Now they are going to pay the price.
Push Leonidas over the cliff while you can, then take a dump on what is left.

Claxypad, you have no idea who I am. Aren't you the one that claims you were a NWA pilot? Was that integration fair? How do you know so many details and names of the people involved in a merger you had no interest in 2 years before the DAL transaction?

You are obviously a bald faced liar. There really isn't a defense for you Nostrosamardsunclaxypad. I know you get off on it, but in the interest of fairness and good conscience, being you're throwing peoples names around, I'm not Kevin anybody. It's impossible for you to know who I am. I've never worked for AMW and I have no association with LLC.

 

[Metroyet]

Yes, these are all very good points.

Now, when would you like to discuss the standard of fairness to which USAPA is legally held to, and when would you like to demonstrate they have breached that standard of fairness?

That's USAPAs Job...they've failed miserably btw.