April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

All in with what? You guys have got NOTHING. You have zilch to go all-in with.

The gambler kept losing.. mortgaged his house, his kid's college fund, and now lost both family cars. Now as the winner is graciously giving back the loser's car seat for the toddler...

They have a car seat!! And there is a reason to give them the car seat....

"Get in. Sit down. Put on your seat belt. STFU. Quit kicking the back of the driver's seat."

 

[Piedmont1984]

End and Brasky

Follow me here. USAPA appeals any negative ruling to the 9th on the basis of ripeness. The attendant timeline takes us beyond the sunset of USAPA and its ability to finance any court action with membership dues. APA will not fight our DOH quest in court. This leaves the east pilots to form their own version of AOL. Lets call it AOX (Army of Xerxes) and then finance the next round of litigation out of pocket.

APA has already stated their position on DOH. So what exactly is your strategy?

 

[Bill Brasky]

EoA...
You are exactly right. I"m not on the inside at USAPA, barely even participate, but I will tell you that they have been very upfront about what they intend to accomplish, at least from my point-of-view. As far as negotiating goes, it's really being dictated by the court, USAPA has to do it. It doesn't mean that they will abandon their principles, and after all these years of pursuing this they would be stupid to do so. There may be something that can make DOH, LOS or some variation thereof more palatable to the west. The problem I see is that there is no certified, legally sanctioned entity to bargain for them, and I think that setting a precedent that any outlying group can just go to court and get a seat at the table would absolutely be contrary to present labor law.

 

[Bill Brasky]

End and Brasky

Follow me here. USAPA appeals any negative ruling to the 9th on the basis of ripeness. The attendant timeline takes us beyond the sunset of USAPA and its ability to finance any court action with membership dues. APA will not fight our DOH quest in court. This leaves the east pilots to form their own version of AOL. Lets call it AOX (Army of Xerxes) and then finance the next round of litigation out of pocket.

APA has already stated their position on DOH. So what exactly is your strategy?

Actually, no, they haven't. A group within the APA has, but that hardly amounts to an official position. I actually think that if the lists on our side are merged appropriately, it will make the two remaining lists look much more compatible. Plus, more than half the attrition over the next five years is ours. There are a lot of reasons that APA could embrace a DOH position, especially with protective C&Rs for both sides.

If Judge Silver finds the current situation ripe and rules against USAPA, this will go back to the Ninth ASAP, but I seriously doubt that will happen. I think that the issue will be solved by the Ninth before that, when they rule on the appeal that management made over the DJ, which should be all over by the end of June.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think we will go with the "gold standard". Sorry to tell you APA is not in anyway supporting you boys but the keep spin going if you must that's what you do best. Tick Tock............ one day and counting.

Yes, I think you are right. DOH, or LOS, with 7 years fences around bases and aircraft types protects the APA pilots from the geriatric east with the fences and the more junior (by LOS) west pilots.

LOS with high, lengthy fences is a clear win for the APA pilots.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Do you think the APA is behind DOH or accepting liability or even a three way?

What liability? The MOU nullifies every basis you might have for a lawsuit on the day the POR is signed. Besides, I thought the APA were the westholes buddies and that they are going to "stick it" to the east pilots.

Please tell us which schizophrenic personality you are before you post. It will make things easier.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Yes, I think you are right. DOH, or LOS, with 7 years fences around bases and aircraft types protects the APA pilots from the geriatric east with the fences and the more junior (by LOS) west pilots.

LOS with high, lengthy fences is a clear win for the APA pilots.

As long as there are provisions to protect careers from the "synergies" (read: downsizing) that this merger is sure to produce. I've been through more than 5 mergers with this company, and they ALL resulted in downsizing of the company.

 

[Black Swan]

And what seniority would you use to integrate with American? DOH? Nicolau?

Ever heard of two seniority lists depending on where you bid?

But keep fishing. The ideas will only get weirder as the walls close in on your DOH dream and usapa begins to fade away.

You did read that the west has proposed arbitration correct? Let the arbitrator decide. Nicolau or the "gold standard" the arbitrator chooses one. Are you confident that usapa's position will be picked by a neutral? Can you convince a different arbitrator that what you invented in the back of a van is fair to ALL the pilots usapa says they represent and not biased for or against one group?

I am willing to bet all in, my position against yours. Are you?

No, there is not another re do. Let's finish the battle. The West insisted Nic or nothing, and never was willing to compromise. DOH with c&r s. this thing is over and done with. I am not willing to open another door for a surprise. If you give AA a 7 yr fence and 10 on the bigger stuff they will bite.
The West is going to sue with anything you propose. If you think you can compromise, you are mistaken.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The New Amerikan airlines are going to FORCE all the other carriers to compete on pay and FORCE their unions to drop their pay to arch ours. We'll see how my prophesy pays out in ten years, but lets revisit it then and see if I'm right.

I disagree, but not because your argument is flawed. It's because you are leaving out the little-regional-carrier mentality of the New American's management. Here is where I actually agree with Trader in that Delta will kick our New American butts with customer service that is clearly far above where the Tempe Brain Trust will take the combined carrier.

Happy employees=happy customers=happy stockholders. Kelleher has always been correct, but Parker never really understood that SAYING it is very different than DOING it.

Delta, and probably United, will continue to pay their employees well because they will have the customer base to do so. Ours will erode. The New American, biggest airline in the world, will be no more than third biggest within five years after the POR is signed.

 

[Metroyet]

End and Brasky

Follow me here. USAPA appeals any negative ruling to the 9th on the basis of ripeness. The attendant timeline takes us beyond the sunset of USAPA and its ability to finance any court action with membership dues. APA will not fight our DOH quest in court. This leaves the east pilots to form their own version of AOL. Lets call it AOX (Army of Xerxes) and then finance the next round of litigation out of pocket.

APA has already stated their position on DOH. So what exactly is your strategy?

Hey! An Eastie is starting to see the big picture! Cool!

 

[cleardirect]

Based on the current paradigm...absolutely. But I want more than one arbitrator. USAPA pays the tab.

The company pays the tab.

What difference does it make if it is one or three? You think you have a better case with three?

The facts don't change with the number of arbitrators. He has only two choices. A or B, the Nicolau of DOH.

If what usapa has been saying for years that DOH is the gold standard it should not take three arbitrators to decide. One is all we need.

 

[luvthe9]

Yes, I think you are right. DOH, or LOS, with 7 years fences around bases and aircraft types protects the APA pilots from the geriatric east with the fences and the more junior (by LOS) west pilots.

LOS with high, lengthy fences is a clear win for the APA pilots.

Most every APA pilot is fine with DOH and a 5 to 7 yr fence, around 43% of are guys will be gone and about 37% (approx) APA boys gone.

 

[Claxon]

Hey! An Eastie is starting to see the big picture! Cool!

It would be a mistake to negotiate with Lyingitas. I remember them bending over to rectify their windfall. (Sarcasm) that is why they are back, trying for a better deal. You are making a monstrous mistake affording them another opening. For all you know they bought Nicolau seeing what he gave them. They will buy the next arbitrator.

 

[Metroyet]

Actually, no, they haven't. A group within the APA has, but that hardly amounts to an official position. I actually think that if the lists on our side are merged appropriately, it will make the two remaining lists look much more compatible. Plus, more than half the attrition over the next five years is ours. There are a lot of reasons that APA could embrace a DOH position, especially with protective C&Rs for both sides.

If Judge Silver finds the current situation ripe and rules against USAPA, this will go back to the Ninth ASAP, but I seriously doubt that will happen. I think that the issue will be solved by the Ninth before that, when they rule on the appeal that management made over the DJ, which should be all over by the end of June.

If Silver rules against USAPA...highly likely IMHO, the company is going to withdraw the appeal at the 9th. It's already mostly moot anyway. This will be up to you guys to appeal to the 9th, USAPA will cease to exist, and the tables fully turn. USAPA still has a fundamental misunderstanding of what fair representation actually means AND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

Stay tuned...

 

[Claxon]

Hey! An Eastie is starting to see the big picture! Cool!

Hey Scooter, what happened to your predictions? Your boys got nothing in court, in fact they got the judge to say no Nicolau. Nice.