April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

In the interest of fairness, I provide the following link to the "professional" america west pilots productions.

http://www.youtube.com/user/InternetTrashTalk

 

[A320 Driver]

LOS (NOT straight DOH) for East domiciles and NIC for the PHX domicile. Either that or a new arbitration with multiple arbitrators using the current paradigm as a starting point. If there is new arbitration, USAPA needs to pony up paper that cannot be ignored regarding an award. Final being FINAL....move on. USAPA also needs to pay the tab on it instead of paying endless legal bills.

 

[nycbusdriver]

LOS (NOT straight DOH) for East domiciles and NIC for the PHX domicile.

That's an interesting compromise that might work if US Airways stands alone. But it is really still two separate lists.

How does that solve the SLI problem with APA, where USAPA is expected to present one list (depending on whom one believes)?

 

[Piedmont1984]

So what if there is no precedent in the CAB for a three way. Why can't USAPA set a new precedent? USAPA should be free to pursue whatever is reasonable to resolve its own internal seniority dispute. If a three way is structured properly the west will represent only the west and negotiate only the placement of PHX pilots within the APA list. Therefore, the Nic would no longer apply. Likewise, the east would negotiate only on behalf of the east pilots with regard to placement on the APA list. Based on USAPA C&BL's, east BPR rhetoric and sentiment, Szymansky's court arguments, etc - this would presumbly begin with DOH and eventually morph into something else, given that APA has already made it clear that DOH would not work for them.

A three way offers all parties a clean slate and an end to the legal cycle of lower court rulings followed by upper court appeals. It offers both risks and benefits. It's possible that the PHX pilots could end up doing just as well or better than the Nic on a consolidated New American list. But I think our position is strong on the merits.

Nothing ventured........

 

[end_of_alpa]

So what if there is no precedent in the CAB for a three way. Why can't USAPA set a new precedent? USAPA should be free to pursue whatever is reasonable to resolve its own internal seniority dispute. If a three way is structured properly the west will represent only the west and negotiate only the placement of PHX pilots within the APA list. Therefore, the Nic would no longer apply. Likewise, the east would negotiate only on behalf of the east pilots with regard to placement on the APA list. Based on USAPA C&BL's, east BPR rhetoric and sentiment, Szymansky's court arguments, etc - this would presumbly begin with DOH and eventually morph into something else, given that APA has already made it clear that DOH would not work for them.

A three way offers all parties a clean slate and an end to the legal cycle of lower court rulings followed by upper court appeals. It offers both risks and benefits. It's possible that the PHX pilots could end up doing just as well or better than the Nic on a consolidated New American list. But I think our position is strong on the merits.

Nothing ventured........

Why don't we just accept whatever the courts think is fair for all the other parts of the contract? Make no mistake, Silver is going to help remake corporations with the New "Amerikan". Work or die.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Why don't we just accept whatever the courts think is fair for all the other parts of the contract? Make no mistake, Silver is going to help remake corporations with the New "Amerikan". Work or die.

A three way establishes a process, not an outcome. Trying to control the outcome by doing such things as inserting explicit DOH language in our C&BLs has not proven particularly helpful - or expedient.

 

[luvthe9]

The west has offered binding arbitration to you easties. Head to head comparison. Either the bad old unfair Nic or the gold standard DOH. All lining up behind the west.

I think we will go with the "gold standard". Sorry to tell you APA is not in anyway supporting you boys but the keep spin going if you must that's what you do best. Tick Tock............ one day and counting.

 

[cleardirect]

I think we will go with the "gold standard". Sorry to tell you APA is not in anyway supporting you boys but the keep spin going if you must that's what you do best. Tick Tock............ one day and counting.

One day and counting until what?

The day the BPR is informed of just how clueless and screwed usapa is? One more day until the reality that the DOH dream is dead?

But you go to that meeting and demand DOH be used. I know, you could start a petition and have all the east pilots sign it telling the BPR DOH or death. DOH or you will recall any rep that votes against DOH.

Do you think the APA is behind DOH or accepting liability or even a three way?

Btw why the resistance to having the west represent ourselves during M/B? If the gold standard is the only method and the west is not going to use the gold standard usapa and you east boys should easily get what you want correct.

 

[cleardirect]

LOS (NOT straight DOH) for East domiciles and NIC for the PHX domicile. Either that or a new arbitration with multiple arbitrators using the current paradigm as a starting point. If there is new arbitration, USAPA needs to pony up paper that cannot be ignored regarding an award. Final being FINAL....move on. USAPA also needs to pay the tab on it instead of paying endless legal bills.

And what seniority would you use to integrate with American? DOH? Nicolau?

Ever heard of two seniority lists depending on where you bid?

But keep fishing. The ideas will only get weirder as the walls close in on your DOH dream and usapa begins to fade away.

You did read that the west has proposed arbitration correct? Let the arbitrator decide. Nicolau or the "gold standard" the arbitrator chooses one. Are you confident that usapa's position will be picked by a neutral? Can you convince a different arbitrator that what you invented in the back of a van is fair to ALL the pilots usapa says they represent and not biased for or against one group?

I am willing to bet all in, my position against yours. Are you?

 

[Bill Brasky]

So what if there is no precedent in the CAB for a three way. Why can't USAPA set a new precedent? USAPA should be free to pursue whatever is reasonable to resolve its own internal seniority dispute. If a three way is structured properly the west will represent only the west and negotiate only the placement of PHX pilots within the APA list. Therefore, the Nic would no longer apply. Likewise, the east would negotiate only on behalf of the east pilots with regard to placement on the APA list. Based on USAPA C&BL's, east BPR rhetoric and sentiment, Szymansky's court arguments, etc - this would presumbly begin with DOH and eventually morph into something else, given that APA has already made it clear that DOH would not work for them.

A three way offers all parties a clean slate and an end to the legal cycle of lower court rulings followed by upper court appeals. It offers both risks and benefits. It's possible that the PHX pilots could end up doing just as well or better than the Nic on a consolidated New American list. But I think our position is strong on the merits.

Nothing ventured........

So, instead of one crap shoot you want two? I think you're nuts. You mean the East fought for all these years and you want to risk having it happen again, twice?

No thanks.

 

[cleardirect]

So, instead of one crap shoot you want two? I think you're nuts. You mean the East fought for all these years and you want to risk having it happen again, twice?

No thanks.

Damn. If only the rest of the world would just let you east pilots dictate what is fair to the rest of us. Things would be so much better for you. Instead you resent a fair process that you call a crap shoot.

What crap shoot? You have told us for years that DOH is the "gold standard" and only fair way to integrate. Are you saying that is not true now???? That when a neutral looks at the facts you can't make your case and convince him you are right.

A friendly reminder. You are not supposed to fight for years. You are supposed to live up to your word. Make your best case to the arbitrator and accept the result. That is the entire point of arbitration. Not to drag it out, cost millions of dollars, destroy unity and fight for years.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Damn. If only the rest of the world would just let you east pilots dictate what is fair to the rest of us. Things would be so much better for you. Instead you resent a fair process that you call a crap shoot.

What crap shoot? You have told us for years that DOH is the "gold standard" and only fair way to integrate. Are you saying that is not true now???? That when a neutral looks at the facts you can't make your case and convince him you are right.

A friendly reminder. You are not supposed to fight for years. You are supposed to live up to your word. Make your best case to the arbitrator and accept the result. That is the entire point of arbitration. Not to drag it out, cost millions of dollars, destroy unity and fight for years.

Says the guys that refused to negotiate at Wye River, fought against the East getting pay parity, filed law suit after law suit, even when it was clear that you wouldn't prevail.

Yep, I want you aholes to pay your dues, just like everyone else. And, it appears that you will, plus that HUGE legal bill coming your way. I guess there's more than one way to get pay parity.....

Guys like you will just make the gloating even better.

 

[A320 Driver]

I am willing to bet all in, my position against yours. Are you?

Based on the current paradigm...absolutely. But I want more than one arbitrator. USAPA pays the tab.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I am willing to bet all in, my position against yours. Are you?

All in with what? You guys have got NOTHING. You have zilch to go all-in with.

I read your lawyers' proposal. No thanks. I'm glad that USAPA has taken a position against it. For one thing, going back to arbitration on this would stretch it out for a long time, time we don't have.

 

[end_of_alpa]

A three way establishes a process, not an outcome. Trying to control the outcome by doing such things as inserting explicit DOH language in our C&BLs has not proven particularly helpful - or expedient.

A "three way" is illegal under RLA. If you want more than two, lets open it up to five....no, seven....hey, what about me? Lets make it 5,500 and counting! The real FACT here is that a smaller group has learned from ALPA, APA and SWAPA how to devalue their own profession by using failed carrier doctrine to advance their own interests over the safety of the profession. This is why M/B came about: to PREVENT the larger group from stripping the smaller/weaker group from THEIR LOS. Read US Airways response to the court about M/B. Labor is theirs, and now OUR, own worst enemy.

No matter, it looks like Steve Bradford is going to empower an ad hoc committee to renegotiate with AwFOL. STeve WANTED DOH in the C & B, along with the majority of those on the conference call. I know, I was there. Steve and the majority explicitly said that they couldn't sell USAPA without that being in there.

I wanted an objective, measurable standard to apply. I was overruled. The rest is history.

If you were to ask me the predictions for the future of the profession, after the CLT injunction and what is going on here, I see much tighter control over what pilots will be able to do, with less authority and MORE pay restrictions. The New Amerikan airlines are going to FORCE all the other carriers to compete on pay and FORCE their unions to drop their pay to arch ours. We'll see how my prophesy pays out in ten years, but lets revisit it then and see if I'm right.