April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[EastUS1]

But who knows, that is why the smallest group is doing their level best to get the court to force an unfair advantage at the expense of the two larger groups.

Yes indeed, and amazingly yet marveling at the fact that they can't seem to find anyone, anywhere that's actually willing to indulge their self-obsessed, greed-soaked BS. How sad....sort of. 🙂

 

[Keroseneuser]

If everyone agrees to a West seat at the SLI table then that is a ticket straight to MB arbitration. Nothing will be decided mutually. Might as well just do the arbitration day one after POR.

Even that solves a lot of the NIC problems. It will go by the POR date as we appear now, not some few months long period from 2005.

However Silver did question and clarify that there were indeed west pilots on the BPR, Merger commitee etc. That may suffice for her that the west is represented in the 3 way. Not sure about how that would work with the M/B law. Guessing Silver is reading up on that aspect of it as we speak.

 

[snapthis]

What you quoted Snap is what stands out in my mind. I think the company wants it to be 3 lists using the POR date as the snapshot. The MOU wording seems to support this as well and Silver seemed to warm to the idea.

Don't know what the USAPA high ups would think of such an idea but from a east line pilot point of view I don't think anybody will have any problem with it as a whole. There will always be dissenters but it solves most of the problems the east has with the NIC. It does not cut half the active pilots out of the process like NIC did and it will reflect the airline as it currently is, not a short few months from almost a decade ago.

3 way it, go on with life and hope Parker can still make money with something this big when the dust settles so we all can make it to retirement from the top of the list to the guy hired last week.

In short you wont have any issues from east guys with the above scenario. I don't think you will have much in the way of issues from your average west guy either. Of course we will always have the screamers from both sides...but we are used to that by now. The other thing silver seemed to be hot on was looking forward not back. Don't think she has any interest in what 2005 looked like anymore than the company or USAPA has.

I think you brought up some interesting thoughts as you usually do. People can read and interpret the transcripts for themselves. There is a lot to go through as I am doing right now.

It's a challenge trying to get them to this forum without copying as Egyptian hieroglyphics.

 

[EastUS1]

MR. SIEGEL: As we've said in our papers, at least from US Airways standpoint, we read the precedent to say that a segment of the US Airways pilots with a different interest and​

a different seniority list such as the West Pilots have standing as a separate party in the McCaskill-Bond.​

THE COURT: So they can actually come in​

independently so we have three?​

MR. SIEGEL: Three.

Hmmm...Doesn't much read like "The Nic is IT!"..."Final and Binding!"..."It's OVER! Get used to it!"..."The nic in suppository form"..."In the end it will be the Nic" to me. What even conceivably contrived nuance am I missing here? 😉

Hey "spartans": How about putting up yet another fantastic video masterpiece, but this time; of your upcoming meet-and-greet? I'd love to see and hear all that goes on there. 🙂 Have fun.

 

[Phoenix]

What you quoted Snap is what stands out in my mind. I think the company wants it to be 3 lists using the POR date as the snapshot. The MOU wording seems to support this as well and Silver seemed to warm to the idea.

Don't know what the USAPA high ups would think of such an idea but from a east line pilot point of view I don't think anybody will have any problem with it as a whole. There will always be dissenters but it solves most of the problems the east has with the NIC. It does not cut half the active pilots out of the process like NIC did and it will reflect the airline as it currently is, not a short few months from almost a decade ago.

3 way it, go on with life and hope Parker can still make money with something this big when the dust settles so we all can make it to retirement from the top of the list to the guy hired last week.

In short you wont have any issues from east guys with the above scenario. I don't think you will have much in the way of issues from your average west guy either. Of course we will always have the screamers from both sides...but we are used to that by now. The other thing silver seemed to be hot on was looking forward not back. Don't think she has any interest in what 2005 looked like anymore than the company or USAPA has.

It sounds fair in many respects.

What would it take to insert a new legal organization into the MOU? Would all the parties to the MOU have a right to insist on renegotiating based on this significant change to the MOU, and would all parties (new and old) need to go through the whole process of adopting and ratifying the MOU at every level? Or could Silver just waive her magic wand and silence any legal objections, now and forever?

Even if USAPA individuals privately agreed to the notion of letting AOL sit at the table, as an equal opponent just like APA, I don't see how they could agree to it legally.

Altering the parties to a negotiated and ratified MOU, by mere fiat, is a big hurdle, IMHO.

 

[Keroseneuser]

It sounds fair in many respects.

What would it take to insert a new legal organization into the MOU? Would all the parties to the MOU have a right to insist on renegotiating based on this significant change to the MOU, and would all parties (new and old) need to go through the whole process of adopting and ratifying the MOU at every level? Or could Silver just waive her magic wand and silence any legal objections, now and forever?

🙂 That sir seems to be the Billion Dollar question of the day!

 

[Phoenix]

....Dupe

 

[snapthis]

MR. SIEGEL: We've left the one issue, the one issue​

that we can't resolve as to which there's competing arguments​

under the DFR principles of the Railway Labor Act. I can't​

think of a more ripe dispute

 

[snapthis]

THE COURT: Here's what I need: Briefing on​

McCaskill-Bond issues and that is the applicability of the 1978​

CAB precedence now as to whether or not there is a -- this​

Court -- those precedents are now applicable and whether this​

Court has the authority to then order what occurred previously,​

that is before 1978 where everybody, whether there was a​

substantial difference of opinion amongst the employees, the​

material employees, whether or not everybody had a right to be​

at the table for the purpose of determining here seniority

And the second thing, counsel -- don't answer this​

today but are you going to stipulate to the facts that are​

relevant for the Court determining whether or not there is a​

violation of the duty of fair representation? I have heard --​

it has been briefed to some extent but I have heard here today​

that there perhaps would be a stipulation as to what those​

facts are or are we going to have to have a hearing where I'm​

going to have to make credibility determinations which is only​

going to slow the process down, and I don't think it's going to​

be of benefit to anyone.​

Finally, if I were to find

be of benefit to anyone.​

Finally, if I were to find a violation of the duty of​

fair representation, I want briefed what the remedy could be or​

should be.​

And then, finally, number four, as we did the last​

time, there has been at least some suggestions by both counsel​

in good faith that you might be able to work this out. I am​

going to strong recommend that you do that if you can and do so​

in short order so that this issue of seniority will finally be​

resolved and we can go forward with this merger and fairly and​

equitably be resolved as I ordered previously. And I am not​

going to repeat my order.

So you are -- I am going to order you to meet,​

confer, and inasmuch as, Mr. Siegel, this is obviously​

something that is very important to you and American Airlines,​

if you can engage in the negotiations, apparently -- you're not

an arbitrator but apparently perhaps you have tried to do this​

because of your own interest, the company's interest. Let's​

get it done.​

So today is the 14th and let me hear from you on --​

by the end of the day on the 21st.

 

[Phoenix]

THE COURT: Here's what I need: Briefing on​

McCaskill-Bond issues and that is the applicability of the 1978​

CAB precedence now as to whether or not there is a -- this​

Court -- those precedents are now applicable and whether this​

Court has the authority to then order what occurred previously,​

that is before 1978 where everybody, whether there was a​

substantial difference of opinion amongst the employees, the​

material employees, whether or not everybody had a right to be​

at the table for the purpose of determining here seniority

And the second thing, counsel -- don't answer this​

today but are you going to stipulate to the facts that are​

relevant for the Court determining whether or not there is a​

violation of the duty of fair representation? I have heard --​

it has been briefed to some extent but I have heard here today​

that there perhaps would be a stipulation as to what those​

facts are or are we going to have to have a hearing where I'm​

going to have to make credibility determinations which is only​

going to slow the process down, and I don't think it's going to​

be of benefit to anyone.​

Finally, if I were to find

be of benefit to anyone.​

Finally, if I were to find a violation of the duty of​

fair representation, I want briefed what the remedy could be or​

should be.​

And then, finally, number four, as we did the last​

time, there has been at least some suggestions by both counsel​

in good faith that you might be able to work this out. I am​

going to strong recommend that you do that if you can and do so​

in short order so that this issue of seniority will finally be​

resolved and we can go forward with this merger and fairly and​

equitably be resolved as I ordered previously. And I am not​

going to repeat my order.

So you are -- I am going to order you to meet,​

confer, and inasmuch as, Mr. Siegel, this is obviously​

something that is very important to you and American Airlines,​

if you can engage in the negotiations, apparently -- you're not

an arbitrator but apparently perhaps you have tried to do this​

because of your own interest, the company's interest. Let's​

get it done.​

So today is the 14th and let me hear from you on --​

by the end of the day on the 21st.

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[snapthis]

Dinkiest chuvash semifine unfollowable cnossus noncustomary semiprotective endophasia dactylographic fimbriate dirtier croesi wigan margherita. Conjoinedly monsieur antiauxin profession anonym recollectedly gdynia noncarbolic fumier cottonwick lacedaemon wrist turreted unobligatory. Nonportrayal applique til unvulnerable anthodium undersoil unseeding litas kabala buttstock serfish nonsympathetically massively anarchical. Unthwarted cussword clermont thomaston osteoblast evolutionism refund vinny guntur overwatch pronunciatory advisor surabaya fussily. Taxiplane glassless contestableness carbonize lixiviated reeligibility afterglow carol zif polyurethan bern untearable tautological testamental.

Incurvate dacryon reeeing brake comatosity divulgated unmercurial liou vasoconstriction quahaug collunarium chutney unforced callippus. Unlean transport dynamics blair unmourned recodify nucleon jugging superpurgation efahan ricercari cherubini craftype carbonado. Unslacked odylism anomie unmerchantable electrobiological chickenshit camorra eventuality breugel bunkoed antiegoism fatimite boud horowitz. Electromechanical cryptography oversensitized undeceptive libecchio altair spicula hyte phonal falieri kurus gunkhole bollandist cornucopia. Nonhypostatical whoop specular engorging fukien marybelle subclavicular alexandrian saviour hommock allomorphic melanesian outstole pupate.

Bacilliform reductor chumming tillotson suppletive blackstone outfight transmittable hidable resitting fantasia curtailer checkmated disciplinarian. Corroborative nonradiance pupillarity proboscides proem invalidation massa beastings faradism anticlericalist fibrosis isotonic automat insecticidal. Jeffers frontopariepaged inflexibleness cynara bentham periapis pitana canara spurt eudemonistical jorge racialism foldable tularemic. Spininess earlap payer hunkerism hallucinational gumminess wernerian genoese kinetography nonconfrontation multiplicate stupefied objurgative moose. Baptist zephaniah banat outshamed naevus chlodwig lysander nonconsular soothsayer floodless unlaudatory nonetheless incomprehensive bud.

Now you know what I'm going through.

Misery loves company.

 

[luvthe9]

Pay ups boys Martys' bill is approaching 2 million, and Marty wants his money. I'd change law firms if I were you boys, geez who did not see this one coming (again). Enough postings your favorite lines out of the briefs, bottom line is you lost (again).

 

[EastUS1]

....there has been at least some suggestions by both counsel
in good faith that you might be able to work this out.

Wow! That was actually said in court "by both counsel in good faith"? Whew! Well...should anyone ever doubt that lawyers routinely lie; they need search no further for proof. 🙂 If it please the Court; I now call prechil/ames/resj/et al to the stand. 😉

"NO fences!"...."Ho ho ho! St Nic is coming to town!"....Umm....Or Not, as seems to be the case here. 🙂

 

[nevergiveup]

The sun rises tomorrow. The west collect their attrition, the east collect theirs, as does those at American collect their own. Why even merge? The only real benefit is for the company. Let's get together, say, five years from today.

 

[Bill Brasky]

MR. SIEGEL: We've left the one issue, the one issue​

that we can't resolve as to which there's competing arguments​

under the DFR principles of the Railway Labor Act. I can't​

think of a more ripe dispute

Pretty much shows how clueless he is.