April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[crazystnic]

I seriously doubt you were in the courtroom, if you were, you must have forgotten to take out the earplugs. She made it clear that DOH or nothing is not going to be acceptable. C&R's are not going to make the grade.

Now, what is your seniority proposal? You can't keep presentlng the same list you have in the past.

You can't have the DOH or nothing jihad imposed on the West.

What is your Plan B?


this is only one district judge... she will not have the last say.

 

[electricjet98]

She already said, in her order and NUMEROUS times in court yesterday, that USAPA is not bound to use the Nic.

YOU LOSE!

Failed reading comprehension, BB?

THE COURT: Let's read all of the order which I
thought I was very clear to make the -- all counsel and the
parties in front of me; but I basically said that you could, in
fact, go forward and make a decision without the Nicolau Award
but I didn't say that you unequivocally could reject it. I
said that it was dangerous for you to do that because it was
considered fair.
So you had to consider it. Now that's what I said
and there's no way you could read that order any other way.

MR. SZYMANSKI: All right. Your Honor, you know your
order and I'm not going to argue with your order.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I seriously doubt you were in the courtroom, if you were, you must have forgotten to take out the earplugs. She made it clear that DOH or nothing is not going to be acceptable. C&R's are not going to make the grade.

Now, what is your seniority proposal? You can't keep presentlng the same list you have in the past.

You can't have the DOH or nothing jihad imposed on the West.

What is your Plan B?


this is only one district judge... she will not have the last say.

48 hours ago the story you idiots told was that Silver was going to declare ripeness and that the Nicolau was it.

Now that it is clear she is moving in the other direction, your story conveniently changes to:

"this is only one district judge... she will not have the last say."

 

[PullUp]

I just read the entire transcript. I think it's pretty clear to the Judge just whom the intransigent party in this is, and it isn't USAPA.

I read closely what Mr. Siegel said regarding the MOU. He was flat wrong. I wonder if anyone in management has told APA that they won't be negotiating a JCBA? According to Mr. Siegel, that's the case, even though that's absolutely not is what is written into the MOU, and certainly isn't the process we voted on. Next, he says that the M/B could be used to combine the East/West pilots, which is totally incorrect, and wouldn't even have applied before the AWA/US merger, since they are represented by the same union. It's obvious that he either has no clue, or is making stuff up to muddy the water. I hope Mr. Szymanski calls his bluff and explains the M/B process to the judge, starting with reading her the actual law itself.

After 5 years, it's pretty unrealistic to think that this thing will be solved in a week. I expect some pretty direct court orders starting on the 17th, with little wiggle room for incorrect interpretation. It was pretty telling how many times she reminded Mr. Harper that in her last order she said that USAPA was free to negotiate something other than the Nic.

What I don't understand is how the judge can be so clueless. What research has she done, or is she relying on being spoon-fed the relevant information?
Seems to me to make an informed decision on a matter you should be well informed on the matter at hand - the agreements, the RLA, the M/B, the MOU and it's timeline, etc.
She doesn't seem to know anything....

 

[nycbusdriver]

The path is short. Ready, here it is: Date of Hire is dead.

So is the Nicolau, according to the judge.

What's left? Lottery?

 

[Phoenix]

... The usual suspects are still after DOH, no doubt they'll be angry at anything less.

Bean

And my guess is that's why there were so many (few really, but loud) east pilots advocating for voting no on the MOU...

So many but few...

I can't speak for everyone but with respect to the seniority issue, I have never been opposed to the idea of a fair compromise. And yes the Nic could be considered a fair compromise under the circumstances when it was decided. We aren't in those circumstances anymore. We simply aren't but certainly the Nic can be instructive today.

As for the MOU vote, it was seniority neutral, and my only opposition to it was scope, the signing bonus, and the idea of saying yes to the first proposal. Now that I have had time to understand the MOU much better and what was actually negotiated, the only issue I have with it is still scope. Perhaps the attrition will be fast enough to mitigate the scope, but that is a really crappy consolation for the next generation.

In my opinion, USAPA did the best they could under the circumstances. C'est la vie.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I see various folks quoting only part of the transcript and flapping their jaws trying to make it lean to their point of view. None of which is really what happened if you read the whole thing. Both sides got grilled.

End result that I got out of it? Company would prefer a 3 way, USAPA is open to trying to find some middle ground(per judges orders)..failing that they will go onto the M/B with 2 DOH lists (east and west) and go from there. AOL is "NIC or Nothing" till the end.

Judge Silver seemed to be agreeable to all the above EXCEPT the Nic or Nothing part. Think she is tired of the same lawsuit coming up every few months.

Pretty sure NIC is dead and buried at this point. DOH with C and R's, prior to M/B process unlikely. Unless the west pilots agree to sit down with USAPA to see what can be worked out (wont happen, see Nic or nothing part) I think the judge has had enough and will rule in a fashion that will guarantee a 3 way after the POR.

Silver spanked both lawyers to a degree but she basically shut down anything Marty had to say concerning forcing the NIC. So thats not going to be an issue. It will be something as yet unseen that is in the middle or a 3 way in my opinion.

 

[Phoenix]

Failed reading comprehension, BB?

THE COURT: Let's read all of the order which I
thought I was very clear to make the -- all counsel and the
parties in front of me; but I basically said that you could, in
fact, go forward and make a decision without the Nicolau Award
but I didn't say that you unequivocally could reject it. I
said that it was dangerous for you to do that because it was
considered fair.
So you had to consider it. Now that's what I said
and there's no way you could read that order any other way.

MR. SZYMANSKI: All right. Your Honor, you know your
order and I'm not going to argue with your order.

"Had to consider it."

Yes, and where is the proof we didn't consider it? How long did we have to consider it?

What if we promise to keep considering it? Will that be enough? We will even agree to an injunction requiring us to consider it before we have to make a decision of what to present in negotiations in the future.

 

[snapthis]

THE COURT: So they can actually come in​

independently so we have three?​

MR. SIEGEL: Three. Now, that's our legal view.​

I've read the papers filed by USAPA with this Court and they​

have filed a number of papers that indicate they may not agree​

with that perception. But I think it's the correct perception.​

THE COURT: Okay. So that is based upon the law and​

I can decide that?​

MR. SIEGEL: Yeah

 

[snapthis]

The unique part about this situation is that the US​

Airways pilots have a split and that -- this isn't the first​

time that has happened and that's why the CAB years ago had to​

consider whether a situation like this warranted separate party​

status for a segment like the West Pilots and the CAB, on more​

than one occasion, said, yes, it did.​

And in those occasions, each of those two groups that​

here would be East and West, had a Merger Committee and hired​

two lawyers so you have a three-party process.​

THE COURT: Okay. So, then, if they hire two​

separate lawyers and they took the position that they are​

taking basically now which is Nicolau or no Nicolau, obviously​

they can't reach an agreement between them, then it goes to​

arbitration and that's what you want resolved as soon as​

possible?​

MR. SIEGEL: That's right. I think it has been made​

but just to make it even more clear, what they are arguing​

about is a first state dispute. What normally happens in​

McCaskill-Bond is that you have normally just two seniority​

lists and the panel is going to, as Mr. Harper said shuffle,​

figure out how to combine two lists. ​

 

[nevergiveup]

I seriously doubt you were in the courtroom, if you were, you must have forgotten to take out the earplugs. She made it clear that DOH or nothing is not going to be acceptable. C&R's are not going to make the grade.

Now, what is your seniority proposal? You can't keep presentlng the same list you have in the past.

You can't have the DOH or nothing jihad imposed on the West.

What is your Plan B?


this is only one district judge... she will not have the last say.

DOH only is not acceptable to anyone. Would DOH and the west fly all of the wide bodies be acceptable? Probably. Remember, anything is negotiable.

 

[Phoenix]

I see various folks quoting only part of the transcript and flapping their jaws trying to make it lean to their point of view. None of which is really what happened if you read the whole thing. Both sides got grilled.

End result that I got out of it? Company would prefer a 3 way, USAPA is open to trying to find some middle ground(per judges orders)..failing that they will go onto the M/B with 2 DOH lists (east and west) and go from there. AOL is "NIC or Nothing" till the end.

Judge Silver seemed to be agreeable to all the above EXCEPT the Nic or Nothing part. Think she is tired of the same lawsuit coming up every few months.

Pretty sure NIC is dead and buried at this point. DOH with C and R's, prior to M/B process unlikely. Unless the west pilots agree to sit down with USAPA to see what can be worked out (wont happen, see Nic or nothing part) I think the judge has had enough and will rule in a fashion that will guarantee a 3 way after the POR.

Silver spanked both lawyers to a degree but she basically shut down anything Marty had to say concerning forcing the NIC. So thats not going to be an issue. It will be something as yet unseen that is in the middle or a 3 way in my opinion.

If everyone agrees to a West seat at the SLI table then that is a ticket straight to MB arbitration. Nothing will be decided mutually. Might as well just do the arbitration day one after POR.

Otherwise USAPA and APA might be able to agree on three way, relative position, C&R for wide bodies.

But who knows, that is why the smallest group is doing their level best to get the court to force an unfair advantage at the expense of the two larger groups. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[nevergiveup]

I bet DOH is starting to look pretty good to the furloughed west pilots.

 

[EastUS1]

I have never heard of anyone doubling their IQ, especially overnight.

 

[Keroseneuser]

THE COURT: So they can actually come in​

independently so we have three?​

MR. SIEGEL: Three. Now, that's our legal view.​

I've read the papers filed by USAPA with this Court and they​

have filed a number of papers that indicate they may not agree​

with that perception. But I think it's the correct perception.​

THE COURT: Okay. So that is based upon the law and​

I can decide that?​

MR. SIEGEL: Yeah

What you quoted Snap is what stands out in my mind. I think the company wants it to be 3 lists using the POR date as the snapshot. The MOU wording seems to support this as well and Silver seemed to warm to the idea.

Don't know what the USAPA high ups would think of such an idea but from a east line pilot point of view I don't think anybody will have any problem with it as a whole. There will always be dissenters but it solves most of the problems the east has with the NIC. It does not cut half the active pilots out of the process like NIC did and it will reflect the airline as it currently is, not a short few months from almost a decade ago.

3 way it, go on with life and hope Parker can still make money with something this big when the dust settles so we all can make it to retirement from the top of the list to the guy hired last week.

In short you wont have any issues from east guys with the above scenario. I don't think you will have much in the way of issues from your average west guy either. Of course we will always have the screamers from both sides...but we are used to that by now. The other thing silver seemed to be hot on was looking forward not back. Don't think she has any interest in what 2005 looked like anymore than the company or USAPA has.