April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

I'm sure one or both of you were there today. Since we are in our trenches. Guess who has the shovel.

Judge Silver

What do we win if we weren't there? I'm not sure Silver really feels any obligation or authority to actually dig during negotiations. She is lobbing water balloons painted like hand grenades, or hand grenades that look like water balloons.

 

[Zone5]

Judge Silver is "imploring" not "ordering" the East and West to reach a compromise, as I have for the last several years, unfortunately, that will not happen. Oh well.

Three lists, three fleets and three contracts......to be negotiated, mediated and or arbitrated into a "global" CBA in accordance with the the MOU agreed to by all. The NIC is OBE, the actual SLI which will be implemented is anybody's guess but it won't be the NIC! The "snapshot" will be taken at the POR and the issue will proceed from there.

Nothing, will happen "soon", enjoy the results of "NIC or nothing", in the mean time! I know I will!


seajay

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yes. I'm a 2004 hire, hence the joke.

Bean

So you're saying only the pre-2001 AWA-hires are the assholes. Ok. I see your point.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Snap,
Silver can't tell a union how to bargain. She is in a bad spot like your boy Wake was in. USAPA is mandated to use DOH with C&R'S.

Hate

I think Judge Silver is trying to play King Solomon here and slip a compromise in the back door of the RLA (where there really isn't a back door) under the guise of federal court.

Anything she tries to do in conflict with the RLA process will be overturned since that law trumps her jurisdiction. It's really clear that the Ninth Circuit will insist that this play itself out under the RLA, and once the process is complete (as they have already defined it: a JCBA in place), then AND ONLY THEN can a DFR be tried.

I commend her for her efforts, but she's spinning her wheels.

 

[nycbusdriver]

She makes the rules, we comply.

That's just it: She does NOT make the rules, and she knows it.

The rules are already in place, and it is call the Railway Labor Act. She can interpret the rules, but her superiors have already told her the meaning of "ripe" in this case. She cannot change that interpretation.

This may be the west class's last and best opportunity to sit down with USAPA and find some C&Rs that will make them happy and stay within USAPA's C&B-Ls. If it actually happens (very doubtful), then we may see an east/west list ready for the merger with AA and with the dubious blessing of a federal district judge. If no one individual rocks the boat, it may work. It will only take ONE pilot on either east or west to point out (with a lawsuit) that any agreement presented on May 21st "has no clothes," and it will fall apart.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It’s a madhouse.

That's an understatement if ever there was one.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You don't get separate representation, nor the ability to separately negotiate.

That's the crazy part of Judge Silver's decision yesterday. She is giving the west class, as her court has defined it, the ability to separately negotiate and come back next week with a compromise. It is SO illegal under the RLA. She has created a pseudo-bargaining agent here.

It's really quite remarkable. And unbelievable if indeed it actually stands up to an inevitable review.

 

[prechilill]

That's just it: She does NOT make the rules, and she knows it.

The rules are already in place, and it is call the Railway Labor Act. She can interpret the rules, but her superiors have already told her the meaning of "ripe" in this case. She cannot change that interpretation.

This may be the west class's last and best opportunity to sit down with USAPA and find some C&Rs that will make them happy and stay within USAPA's C&B-Ls. If it actually happens (very doubtful), then we may see an east/west list ready for the merger with AA and with the dubious blessing of a federal district judge. If no one individual rocks the boat, it may work. It will only take ONE pilot on either east or west to point out (with a lawsuit) that any agreement presented on May 21st "has no clothes," and it will fall apart.

NEWS FLASH: DOH is dead

 

[Bill Brasky]

NEWS FLASH: DOH is dead

NEWS FLASH: Wanna bet? I bet whatever USAPA comes up with will look more like DOH than the Nic. Count on it. Judge Silver knows that she cannot use three lists in a M/B arbitration. She said as much when she asked whether the parties thought she had the power to do that. Plus, the law itself says that it doesn'r pertain to groups represented by the same union.

The Nic was DEAD the day the NMB granted USAPA single carrier status to represent ALL the pilots of LCC. Been dead a LONG time.

 

[prechilill]

NEWS FLASH: Wanna bet? I bet whatever USAPA comes up with will look more like DOH than the Nic. Count on it. Judge Silver knows that she cannot use three lists in a M/B arbitration. She said as much when she asked whether the parties thought she had the power to do that. Plus, the law itself says that it doesn'r pertain to groups represented by the same union.

The Nic was DEAD the day the NMB granted USAPA single carrier status to represent ALL the pilots of LCC. Been dead a LONG time.

DOH never existed. At least Silver laid it out for you- COMPROMISE

 

[Bill Brasky]

DOH never existed. At least Silver laid it out for you- COMPROMISE

She's about to lay it out for you...YOU LOSE!

 

[Walmartgreeter]

DOH never existed. At least Silver laid it out for you- COMPROMISE

Of course there can be compromise. But any product of such an effort would have to first be ratified in a CBA by this pilot group. Judges can direct parties to compromise, negotiate, give in, etc....but in the end the RLA says I get a vote. No list will be "imposed." How do I know? Because after 6 years no court or judge has been able to "impose" the NIC.

The West Class is a day late and dollar short finally coming to the realization the NIC will never be the list. Any possible new product of this recent order that contains any trace of that monstrosity will not pass vote.

And if my union chooses to use a list I did not vote on, I will have my own DFR.

Greeter

 

[snapthis]

That's just it: She does NOT make the rules, and she knows it.

The rules are already in place, and it is call the Railway Labor Act. She can interpret the rules, but her superiors have already told her the meaning of "ripe" in this case. She cannot change that interpretation.

This may be the west class's last and best opportunity to sit down with USAPA and find some C&Rs that will make them happy and stay within USAPA's C&B-Ls. If it actually happens (very doubtful), then we may see an east/west list ready for the merger with AA and with the dubious blessing of a federal district judge. If no one individual rocks the boat, it may work. It will only take ONE pilot on either east or west to point out (with a lawsuit) that any agreement presented on May 21st "has no clothes," and it will fall apart.

Both Marty and Pat got spanked yesterday. Her tone was along the lines of telling two students that did not listen to her homework assignment. She spelled out what she expects so that is the make the rules and comply aspect I referred.

All this is going to make for an interesting day on the 17th with our meet and greet,

True, one pilot East or West can complicate things and there is the appeal which is a foregone conclusion. This is not over by a long-shot.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Both Marty and Pat got spanked yesterday. Her tone was along the lines of telling two students that did not listen to her homework assignment. She spelled out what she expects so that is the make the rules and comply aspect I referred.

All this is going to make for an interesting day on the 17th with our meet and greet,

True, one pilot East or West can complicate things and there is the appeal which is a foregone conclusion. This is not over by a long-shot.

Appeals are NOT automatic. The court has to allow it, and the Appeals court has to accept it. Marty didn't get spanked alone, all the westies did, with their "Nic or nothing" attitude. And more is on the way.

I want to see how Marty tries to spin this so that he can get his cash. It's getting awful hard to see any way he can pull off even a minor victory.

This is a loit closer to being over than you think.

 

[Piedmont1984]

On the subject of compromise, I would say ratification of a east/west JCBA with a compromise seniority scheme is unrealistic. There will be no 'LCC only' JCBA because we have moved on to the MOU and MTA.

Compromise means both sides must first acknowledge there will be no DOH and no Nic. Whatever is left, if agreed to by the majority of both east and west pilots, certainly falls within the reasonable definition of a LUP and will most likely prevail against any DFR challenge - or at least any damages will be tolerable.

There is no official entity to represent the west, but AOL and/or the PHX BPR reps can quickly and accurately gauge whether a majority of west would support a new seniority regime. The courts have now sanctioned this. All that is left is the language in the USAPA C&BL's, which I think is intentionally or unintentionally vague enough to move off straight DOH.

The other possibility is that the language simply sunsets if this dispute is still ongoing when we become APA.