April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Black Swan]

The tide is going out in Phoenix this afternoon. We shall soon see who is swimming without their swim trunks.

 

[snapthis]

Dupe. Deleted

 

[cleardirect]

The tide is going out in Phoenix this afternoon. We shall soon see who is swimming without their swim trunks.

Have you east pilots considered the position that you are find yourselves?

The situation has changed but I think you fail to understand. In the NY action brought by usapa. The UCC and AMR told the BK court that this is Parker's problem that needs to be solved before us airways and AMR pilots can merge. Judge Lane pointed that fact out during the hearing.

AMR weighted in in AZ and told the court that they need a decision on the merits quickly and this needs to be solved first, before the merger. They also said that this case is ripe.

The company has told the court this case is ripe and they need a decision on the merits. The company has told the court and the NMB that it is usapa that is delaying and a dragging out the seniority dispute.

Usapa first asked for a delay because of the NY action. They told the court that the case would not be ripe until the MB processes is complete, that could be another couple years. In usapa's latest filing they are complaining that the rules are not being followed that they need extensive discovery and that this case should not be heard for a long time.

The UCC, AMR and the company have all said that they need an answer on the merits quickly and they can't wait anymore. At what point do the money men ignore the delay tactics of a union that is about be no longer exist and move on with an 11 billion deal?

Here is my question. What if Parker and AMR just decide that they are going to abide by the T/A and implement the Nicolau? They have said the MOU is a contract. A contract triggers the T/A and implements the Nicolau. No negotiations for seniority between east west. They can integrate east west flying. No more liability from the west.

What stops Parker from using the Nicolau if the case is dismissed or delayed?

If usapa gets what they are asking for no ones problem is fixed and we will be back in court some time in the distant future. If the company does what they should have done years ago this ends.

I think the last thing usapa would want is what they are asking for. Dismissal. That means Parker finally makes a decision and that is unappealable to any court. Dismissal goes under the careful what you wish for label.

What stops Parker, AMR and the UCC from making the decision to use the Nicolau?

Fear of a dying union? Fear of east pilots with an injunction against them? Delaying for a couple more years losing money running separate ops? Usapa has backed Parker into a corner and he needs to move now. Delay has worked for you but that horse has been ridden into the ground.

The other possibility is the judge grants a temporary injunction. Either today or in the very near future requiring usapa and the company to use the Nicolau.

She grants usapa all the things they asked for. delay, expensive discovery, an investigation into rules violations all of it. Once that injunction is in place usapa can drag this out as long as they want. Do all the discovery they want. But the Nicolau is the list that they will have to use during the delay getting to the trial on the merits. Any appeal of the temporary injunction will take a long time to be heard. The APA will become the bargaining agent and drop the appeal and most likely accept the temporary injunction as permenant.

The way I see it you east pilots are in a no win situation. If the judge agrees with usapa and dismisses. Parker decides on his own and implements the Nicolau because he needs the deal done. If the judge grants a temporary injunction that becomes the list for a very long time until we get to a trial that usapa never wants to happen.

All roads lead to the Nicolau.

How do any of you east pilots see usapa winning today?

 

[Phoenix]

Have you east pilots considered the position that you are find yourselves?

The situation has changed but I think you fail to understand. In the NY action brought by usapa. The UCC and AMR told the BK court that this is Parker's problem that needs to be solved before us airways and AMR pilots can merge. Judge Lane pointed that fact out during the hearing.

AMR weighted in in AZ and told the court that they need a decision on the merits quickly and this needs to be solved first, before the merger. They also said that this case is ripe.

The company has told the court this case is ripe and they need a decision on the merits. The company has told the court and the NMB that it is usapa that is delaying and a dragging out the seniority dispute.

Usapa first asked for a delay because of the NY action. They told the court that the case would not be ripe until the MB processes is complete, that could be another couple years. In usapa's latest filing they are complaining that the rules are not being followed that they need extensive discovery and that this case should not be heard for a long time.

The UCC, AMR and the company have all said that they need an answer on the merits quickly and they can't wait anymore. At what point do the money men ignore the delay tactics of a union that is about be no longer exist and move on with an 11 billion deal?

Here is my question. What if Parker and AMR just decide that they are going to abide by the T/A and implement the Nicolau? They have said the MOU is a contract. A contract triggers the T/A and implements the Nicolau. No negotiations for seniority between east west. They can integrate east west flying. No more liability from the west.

What stops Parker from using the Nicolau if the case is dismissed or delayed?

If usapa gets what they are asking for no ones problem is fixed and we will be back in court some time in the distant future. If the company does what they should have done years ago this ends.

I think the last thing usapa would want is what they are asking for. Dismissal. That means Parker finally makes a decision and that is unappealable to any court. Dismissal goes under the careful what you wish for label.

What stops Parker, AMR and the UCC from making the decision to use the Nicolau?

Fear of a dying union? Fear of east pilots with an injunction against them? Delaying for a couple more years losing money running separate ops? Usapa has backed Parker into a corner and he needs to move now. Delay has worked for you but that horse has been ridden into the ground.

The other possibility is the judge grants a temporary injunction. Either today or in the very near future requiring usapa and the company to use the Nicolau.

She grants usapa all the things they asked for. delay, expensive discovery, an investigation into rules violations all of it. Once that injunction is in place usapa can drag this out as long as they want. Do all the discovery they want. But the Nicolau is the list that they will have to use during the delay getting to the trial on the merits. Any appeal of the temporary injunction will take a long time to be heard. The APA will become the bargaining agent and drop the appeal and most likely accept the temporary injunction as permenant.

The way I see it you east pilots are in a no win situation. If the judge agrees with usapa and dismisses. Parker decides on his own and implements the Nicolau because he needs the deal done. If the judge grants a temporary injunction that becomes the list for a very long time until we get to a trial that usapa never wants to happen.

All roads lead to the Nicolau.

How do any of you east pilots see usapa winning today?

The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA.​

​

​

 

[nevergiveup]

My view is that the judges don't offer a lot. I predict she will say the case is dismissed as the MOU covers the seniority integration process as is preferred by both east and west and leave it at that. But I will not be surprised by some other type of ruling.

 

[Black Swan]

Have you east pilots considered the position that you are find yourselves?

The situation has changed but I think you fail to understand. In the NY action brought by usapa. The UCC and AMR told the BK court that this is Parker's problem that needs to be solved before us airways and AMR pilots can merge. Judge Lane pointed that fact out during the hearing.

AMR weighted in in AZ and told the court that they need a decision on the merits quickly and this needs to be solved first, before the merger. They also said that this case is ripe.

The company has told the court this case is ripe and they need a decision on the merits. The company has told the court and the NMB that it is usapa that is delaying and a dragging out the seniority dispute.

Usapa first asked for a delay because of the NY action. They told the court that the case would not be ripe until the MB processes is complete, that could be another couple years. In usapa's latest filing they are complaining that the rules are not being followed that they need extensive discovery and that this case should not be heard for a long time.

The UCC, AMR and the company have all said that they need an answer on the merits quickly and they can't wait anymore. At what point do the money men ignore the delay tactics of a union that is about be no longer exist and move on with an 11 billion deal?

Here is my question. What if Parker and AMR just decide that they are going to abide by the T/A and implement the Nicolau? They have said the MOU is a contract. A contract triggers the T/A and implements the Nicolau. No negotiations for seniority between east west. They can integrate east west flying. No more liability from the west.

What stops Parker from using the Nicolau if the case is dismissed or delayed?

If usapa gets what they are asking for no ones problem is fixed and we will be back in court some time in the distant future. If the company does what they should have done years ago this ends.

I think the last thing usapa would want is what they are asking for. Dismissal. That means Parker finally makes a decision and that is unappealable to any court. Dismissal goes under the careful what you wish for label.

What stops Parker, AMR and the UCC from making the decision to use the Nicolau?

Fear of a dying union? Fear of east pilots with an injunction against them? Delaying for a couple more years losing money running separate ops? Usapa has backed Parker into a corner and he needs to move now. Delay has worked for you but that horse has been ridden into the ground.

The other possibility is the judge grants a temporary injunction. Either today or in the very near future requiring usapa and the company to use the Nicolau.

She grants usapa all the things they asked for. delay, expensive discovery, an investigation into rules violations all of it. Once that injunction is in place usapa can drag this out as long as they want. Do all the discovery they want. But the Nicolau is the list that they will have to use during the delay getting to the trial on the merits. Any appeal of the temporary injunction will take a long time to be heard. The APA will become the bargaining agent and drop the appeal and most likely accept the temporary injunction as permenant.

The way I see it you east pilots are in a no win situation. If the judge agrees with usapa and dismisses. Parker decides on his own and implements the Nicolau because he needs the deal done. If the judge grants a temporary injunction that becomes the list for a very long time until we get to a trial that usapa never wants to happen.

All roads lead to the Nicolau.

How do any of you east pilots see usapa winning today?

You are going to lose today. I am going to keep it short and sweet.
What keeps Parker from using the Nicolau? Easy. The RLA. That simple. The same collective bargaining rules that he follows on all other matters. He cannot impose the Nic.
Neither can Silver. Just as Wake could not.
No roads lead to the Nicolau. All you have is your attempt, attempt at harm. And you voted for he MOU. Not smart.

 

[Black Swan]

Didnt the East and West MECs negotiate before arbitration?

Didnt both sides present their case in front of the arbiter and the panel?

Didnt both sides meet at Wye River?

(and the west was under no obligation to do so)

You still have no idea about what internal union dispute means.

 

[Black Swan]

The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA.​

​

​

That was the 9th Court of Appeals. The one that will clean up any errors an Arizona court might make, again.

 

[snapthis]

That was the 9th Court of Appeals. The one that will clean up any errors an Arizona court might make, again.

That makes a lot of sense. Relying on the most overturned court in the land

Source: Wikipedia

History and background
Controversy
Alleged political liberalism
According to the most current count, the Ninth Circuit has the highest percentage (68%) of sitting judges appointed by Democratic presidents. Republicans argue the court is biased because of its relatively high proportion of Democratic appointees.[5] However, Republicans have not been the only ones to make such an allegation.[6] Others argue the court's high percentage of reversals is illusory, resulting from the circuit hearing more cases than the other circuits; this results in the Supreme Court reviewing a smaller proportion of its cases, letting stand the vast majority of its cases.[7][8

Source: LA Times

The 9th Circuit also has a long-running streak as the most overturned, which went unbroken this year. The Supreme Court reviewed 22 cases from the 9th Circuit last term, and it reversed or vacated 19 times. By comparison, the Supreme Court reviewed only five cases, vacating or reversing four, from the next-busiest court of appeals, the 5th Circuit based in New Orleans.

 

[high*flyer]

Clearless said:"AMR weighted in in AZ and told the court that they need a decision" and this " the company told the court the case is ripe". Clearly you do know it is the court that does the "telling". As for the other: Isn't it a little early to start drinking in PHX?

 

[traderjake]

The 9th Circuit also has a long-running streak as the most overturned, which went unbroken this year. The Supreme Court reviewed 22 cases from the 9th Circuit last term, and it reversed or vacated 19 times.

This is the Court USAPA supporters pinned their hopes to.

 

[snapthis]

This is the Court USAPA supporters pinned their hopes to.

There are calls to abolish this court. Just look at their record. Simply put, the 9th sucks.

 

[700UW]

You still have no idea about what internal union dispute means.

You have no clue of my knowledge, experience and education when it comes to unions, collective bargaining, and grievance procedures.

 

[700UW]

Interesting reading.

http://iamdelta.net/pdfs/contracts/Delta%20Pilot%20Contracts/DeltaPilotsContractComparison2011.pdf

 

[prechilill]

Have you east pilots considered the position that you are find yourselves?

The situation has changed but I think you fail to understand. In the NY action brought by usapa. The UCC and AMR told the BK court that this is Parker's problem that needs to be solved before us airways and AMR pilots can merge. Judge Lane pointed that fact out during the hearing.

AMR weighted in in AZ and told the court that they need a decision on the merits quickly and this needs to be solved first, before the merger. They also said that this case is ripe.

The company has told the court this case is ripe and they need a decision on the merits. The company has told the court and the NMB that it is usapa that is delaying and a dragging out the seniority dispute.

Usapa first asked for a delay because of the NY action. They told the court that the case would not be ripe until the MB processes is complete, that could be another couple years. In usapa's latest filing they are complaining that the rules are not being followed that they need extensive discovery and that this case should not be heard for a long time.

The UCC, AMR and the company have all said that they need an answer on the merits quickly and they can't wait anymore. At what point do the money men ignore the delay tactics of a union that is about be no longer exist and move on with an 11 billion deal?

Here is my question. What if Parker and AMR just decide that they are going to abide by the T/A and implement the Nicolau? They have said the MOU is a contract. A contract triggers the T/A and implements the Nicolau. No negotiations for seniority between east west. They can integrate east west flying. No more liability from the west.

What stops Parker from using the Nicolau if the case is dismissed or delayed?

If usapa gets what they are asking for no ones problem is fixed and we will be back in court some time in the distant future. If the company does what they should have done years ago this ends.

I think the last thing usapa would want is what they are asking for. Dismissal. That means Parker finally makes a decision and that is unappealable to any court. Dismissal goes under the careful what you wish for label.

What stops Parker, AMR and the UCC from making the decision to use the Nicolau?

Fear of a dying union? Fear of east pilots with an injunction against them? Delaying for a couple more years losing money running separate ops? Usapa has backed Parker into a corner and he needs to move now. Delay has worked for you but that horse has been ridden into the ground.

The other possibility is the judge grants a temporary injunction. Either today or in the very near future requiring usapa and the company to use the Nicolau.

She grants usapa all the things they asked for. delay, expensive discovery, an investigation into rules violations all of it. Once that injunction is in place usapa can drag this out as long as they want. Do all the discovery they want. But the Nicolau is the list that they will have to use during the delay getting to the trial on the merits. Any appeal of the temporary injunction will take a long time to be heard. The APA will become the bargaining agent and drop the appeal and most likely accept the temporary injunction as permenant.

The way I see it you east pilots are in a no win situation. If the judge agrees with usapa and dismisses. Parker decides on his own and implements the Nicolau because he needs the deal done. If the judge grants a temporary injunction that becomes the list for a very long time until we get to a trial that usapa never wants to happen.

All roads lead to the Nicolau.

How do any of you east pilots see usapa winning today?

Well said. I would add the company is in a no-win situation with the nebulous language of the MOU regarding seniority. If the company reverses itself and declares today the Nic is the list then they are liable to usapa and the east pilots for altering their position post-MOU.
Clearly, the company has painted themselves in a corner.