April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[prechilill]

You will see the nic will be used, changing unions doesnt get you out of an arbitration decision.

You dont have a JCBA thats why it isnt in place yet.

And that's the key point which is conveniently missed by the USAPs. The union owns the Nic... They can do what they want (and suffer damages) but the seniority agreement is inherited like every other previous contracts and arbitration decisions.
The day the POR occurs damages start accruing against USAPA.

 

[Phoenix]

Have you read the part in the MOU about what happens to the TA after the effective date?

The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA.​

We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA.​

But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (Doc. 156-3 at 38).
Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an entirely new
collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US
Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the
Ninth Circuit, “seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so
may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.” Hass v.
Darigold Dairy Products Co., 751 F.2d 1096, 1099 (9th Cir. 1985). And a union “may
renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the
resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.” Id.
Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it [USAPA] is free to do so.

 

[traderjake]

You're still an idiot.

Coming from you that's a compliment.

 

[Pi brat]

And that's the key point which is conveniently missed by the USAPs. The union owns the Nic... They can do what they want (and suffer damages) but the seniority agreement is inherited like every other previous contracts and arbitration decisions.
The day the POR occurs damages start accruing against USAPA.

How so and what are the damages? The day the POR is signed all previous contracts are null and void and we are governed by the MTA until a final JCBA is reached. The MOU provides for continuation of separate ops until SLI with AA. What are your damages at POR if the Nic is not in place? You cannot bid anything else anyway and have your block hours protected.

Dollar amount please.

 

[nevergiveup]

And that's the key point which is conveniently missed by the USAPs. The union owns the Nic... They can do what they want (and suffer damages) but the seniority agreement is inherited like every other previous contracts and arbitration decisions.
The day the POR occurs damages start accruing against USAPA.

Winning is always step one, and is still a long way off. Step two, and tremendously larger than step one, is collecting. 2030+. Hey, it's your $$.

 

[Pi brat]

DING,DING, DING

 

[Phoenix]

Have you read the part in the MOU about what happens to the TA after the effective date?

"It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA... it [the MTA] shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising thereunder."


Did we all vote for the MTA to be seniority neutral? Yes.

Is the TA seniority neutral? No, it requires the Nic.

Does the MTA preserve the TA, and thus the Nic? No. But that is what we voted for.

 

[Pi brat]

Pre? And damages to your ego are rarely financially compensated.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The day the POR occurs damages start accruing against USAPA.

Thank you, Judge Space Cadet, for that cogent ruling.

I will call USAPA HQ and let them know that it's over because you say so.

 

[prechilill]

How so and what are the damages? The day the POR is signed all previous contracts are null and void and we are governed by the MTA until a final JCBA is reached. The MOU provides for continuation of separate ops until SLI with AA. What are your damages at POR if the Nic is not in place? You cannot bid anything else anyway and have your block hours protected.

Dollar amount please.

Following POR there is no more east and west. One pilot group. If the west is not allowed to bid east damages begin. Every west pilot is senior enough to be group 2 captains, that's where the damages come from.

 

[Pi brat]

Following POR there is no more east and west. One pilot group. If the west is not allowed to bid east damages begin. Every west pilot is senior enough to be group 2 captains, that's where the damages come from.

That's in the same agreement that gets you to that point!

 

[Phoenix]

Following POR there is no more east and west. One pilot group. If the west is not allowed to bid east damages begin. Every west pilot is senior enough to be group 2 captains, that's where the damages come from.

No more East and West... Why does it provide for furlough protection by name, East Pilot “X” and West Pilot “Y” who will be the most junior US Airways pilots...

Why does it provide min block hours for East and West?

Why does the MOU/MTA establish seniority neutrality by replacing the seniority prescriptive TA? Because we all voted for it to do so!

If that isn't what we wanted we should have voted against it..

 

[prechilill]

No more East and West... Why does it provide for furlough protection by name, East Pilot “X” and West Pilot “Y” who will be the most junior US Airways pilots...

Why does it provide min block hours for East and West?

Why does the MOU/MTA establish seniority neutrality by replacing the seniority prescriptive TA? Because we all voted for it to do so!

If that isn't what we wanted we should have voted against it..

Collusion. The company is about to learn the definition from a federal judge.

 

[Pi brat]

Collusion. The company is about to learn the definition from a federal judge.

Collusion?! Really?

There was/is no mechanism for the west to instantly profit from the Nic windfall, so there are no damages. Ever heard of "No Bump/Flush"?

If the merger never came along and we completed the TA, the company would have had 12 months from the final piece to implement the Nic. Under the MOU, we keep separate ops until AA SLI. We agreed to that. Now, there is a provision that says that if any part of the MOU is found illegal it can be changed. So, IF you get a positive ruling from the courts the most like outcome would be that the Nic would be used as the starting point for SLI, and that's it. IMHO, you are still a long way from your goals.

 

[Phoenix]

Collusion. The company is about to learn the definition from a federal judge.

So you apparently agree the MOU does keep a West and East separate, and you don't appear to deny the MOU establishes seniority neutrality, ergo your accusation of collusion...


Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an entirely new
collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US
Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish... (such as an MTA that establishes seniority neutrality)


..it is unlikely the West Pilots could successfully allege claims against US Airways merely
for not insisting that USAPA continue to advocate for the Nicolau Award.