April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[nycbusdriver]

by the way , I was thinking about this today, But I think Mr Odell would be a Capt sooner if we stay separate and he stays EAST.

Mr. Odell has enough east seniority to be Captain O'Dell in August if he had so desired.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I'm not telling the truth? This is from someone who denied the fact the East had furloughed pilots. What's next? Denying the holocaust?
This is getting weirder by the hour.

I never denied we had furloughed pilots. What I said is we had none at the time of the merger.

The ALPA snapshot used during their failed process has no meaning for USAPA, but keep hanging on to it if you wish. Just like your belief the pilots involved in the RICO action "did nothing wrong."

Greeter

 

[Walmartgreeter]

BEST GUESS, look to the MOU experation, that is when it will all be sorted, ( JAN 2019)! Till the seperate ops! MM!

I hope you are right. Best of both worlds....MOU pay and East attrition!

Greeter

 

[snapthis]

I never denied we had furloughed pilots. What I said is we had none at the time of the merger.
Greeter

That makes sense when you are speaking about the merger with American. Claiming US Airways had no furloughed pilots in 2005 would be a fabrication and make you look foolish.

 

[Metroyet]

No need. The RLA is on USAPA's side per the Ninth Circuit and Judge Silver.

The two companies just want this over and will say anything to get it there. A finding of ripeness on Tuesday, though highly unlikely, only starts the Addington trial all over again from square one all the way through appeals. How long did that take last time?

For some reason the westholes are equating a "Ripe" ruling with the end of the game and institution of the Nicolau shame. Oh, how wrong that is. It would only begin a new battle.

There's a lot more than ripeness happening now. Prepare yourself to be blindsided for the umpteenth time. You should know by now that your "Union" is 95% full of it when communicating with the devoted. This is getting adjudicated by the POR. There is no more magic delay button.

 

[snapthis]

And why do you consider East pilots scabs sir? Be specific, it would make my day.

It's ironic that the NW/Delta merger had a similar merger methodology to our seniority arbitration. I did not see any melt-downs over there. No wonder Delta wanted no part of a merger with US Airways. They saw trouble and wanted no part of it.

Finally, I'll let you be a fly on the wall. This is what is being said in just the past few days on our forums. The USAPA experiment was a disaster due to the division created by it's inception. This was not about ALPA or an arbitrator, this was about evading binding arbitration. The Bradford Letter lays out the foundation of evasion.

If a 'union" cheats arbitration, files lawsuits against it's membership, tries to get the company to terminate pilots rather than protect their jobs.

You get resentment in return.

"I would like to file an official complaint with the DOJ and/or DOL concerning USAPA's theft of my general fund dues money to fund their PIC expenses. Could you or XXXX direct me where to start? Also, if you could supply me with copies of paperwork that the Feds may like to see concerning this would be great."

"Just sent the scabs an email telling them to take me off dues check-off. Hopefully I will owe them money when they go away."

• "These east POS will eventually get what they deserve - Karma has a way of doing that. We have maybe eight more months of this USAPA crap and then all that is the USAPA experiment will be over. Count to ten for now."

"I have more faith in a union than I do a scab outfit. Usapa membership just as I thought and preached about for years has produced exactly jack$#it. Now I get the pleasure of funding their ill advised fruitless attempt to rewrite history and gain that which is not there nor will it ever be. Those pensions are long gone never to ever return. This has never stopped the east however as they would attempt to hump the dead and argue with GOD almighty that this is not fair and that they are entitled to that piece of #$@.""

"usapa will be terminated by a real union and not due to west anything…………I just understand completely the enemy and how they set up shop to minimize the west and for 6 years they have done just that. Apa is the future WITH or WITHOUT west aid and usapa will be a distant bad memory."

"While former America West Pilots are very familiar with the attitude of deserved privilege by the group enjoying a 2:1 majority, it is still outlandish and potentially illegal behavior. It should not go unmentioned that the pilots of US Airways have recently ratified a process that will cause USAPA to become non-existent in the likely event that US Airways merges with American Airlines. USAPA must not be allowed to use that eventuality as a smoke-screen to hide current criminal behaviors. As such, I am requesting an investigation and financial audit of USAPA."

"They take from us daily.

They have been allowed to take from us daily.

They cause harm at every opportunity.

Things have gone to far to forgive.

They will get what comes to them.

I will always have a list of their names.

I did not cause this.

I did not create this.

I did not want this.

They brought this on. Their actions brought this on.

And it will infect me until the end of my career.

Never forgotten.

Scum bags!

USAPA! "

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I hope you are right. Best of both worlds....MOU pay and East attrition!

Greeter

BOOKMARK IT OTIS! My guess SILVER, SYSTEM BOARD OUT OF HER JURISDICTION! 2019 the list will be consructed from 3 lists! LOS conditions and restrictions with a 7 year fence! Taking any merged list free of C&R's to 2026! LUV that ATTRITION TRAIN!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

It's ironic that the NW/Delta merger had a similar merger methodology to our seniority arbitration. I did not see any melt-downs over there. No wonder Delta wanted no part of a merger with US Airways. They saw trouble and wanted no part of it.



USAPA! "[/font][/color][/i][/size]

I think if you look at that list with the "3" arbitrated panel you are footloose with the phrase "similar merger methodology", apples and oranges are similar being they are fruits, sorta like their similarity to yourself!

 

[cleardirect]

The West Class threatened physical violence on pilots that stepped up to be reps early on. If this ever goes to a DFR trial, all this will finally come out via sworn written statements. The next one won't be a Wake circus. It will all come out, even the most recent smash down of non-Leo Merger committee members. They turned down two postions on the Committee because they were not "Leo."

But no worries, the world will never see those transgressions. There will be no need.

Greeter

Hey you finally got something right. None of those "transgressions" will see a court room. They have nothing to do with usapa's DFR. Judge Silver is not going to allow usapa to turn her court room into a circus of irrelevant false accusations. The DFR is not about anything except the behavior of usapa and the company. Leonidas is not on trial. Usapa is.

Tuesday is going to be fun. After reading usapa's latest work of fiction filed with the court I expect judge Silver to put a big smack down on usapa. Arrogance or ignorance I can't decide which after reading that filing from usapa. Either usapa thinks judge Silver is stupid and can be manipulated or Shamanski is the dumbest lawyer on the planet with a severe reading comprehension problem.

After reading the desperate usapa pleading AMR has a good idea about usapa and confirmed their fear that it is usapa trying to delay the merger. AMR and the UCC is not going put up with it. Just like AMR feared usapa wants to delay the seniority integrations for years. Not this time boys. Delay is over and the money men have had it with usapa.

 

[snapthis]

Communications Committee

May 10, 2013


USAPA Update - Legal Postings

Yesterday (May 9) AMR filed a motion in the Bankruptcy Court to approve, among other labor agreements, the MOU that was ratified by USAPA members on February 8, 2013. Click here to read the Motion and supporting papers. This is a normal action in a bankruptcy proceeding in that all contracts reached during the pendency of a Chapter 11 proceeding must be approved by the Bankruptcy Court.

The Motion sets May 23 as the deadline for any interested party to file an objection to the approval of the agreements and May 30 as the date for a hearing before the Bankruptcy Court on the Motion.

We expect the Motion will be approved. We will keep you informed of any significant developments concerning the motion.

New Addington II postings in the Legal Library from May 9, 2013:

Doc 63, US Airways Non-Opposition to AMR Motion to Intervene:
We fully expected US Airways to agree with AMR’s Motion to Intervene.

Doc 64, US Airways Response to Plaintiffs Motion to Consolidate PI Hearing with Trial on the Merits:
US Airways agrees that it is appropriate to consolidate trial on the merits, with the May 14 hearing on the motion for Preliminary Injunction. We are not surprised. This is an attempt to shortcut the normal District Court process that provides for an answer to the complaint, discovery, and reasonable and adequate notice before a trial on the merits. After years of delay in negotiations and continuing efforts to delay resolution of the appeal from Judge Silver’s decision in the Declaratory Judgment Action, now US Airways wants to expedite matters. As we said in a previous message concerning recent filings, a motion of this sort is rarely if ever granted, where, as in this case, there has been no answer, no discovery, and no reasonable advance notice. (Plaintiffs Motion to Consolidate (Doc 60) was filed on May 8, less than a week before the hearing.) We are confident that this matter and all other matters before Judge Silver will be decided on the facts and the law, and not on what US Airways wants, or AMR wants, or on how many parties weigh in on a particular position. Judge Silver’s court is a court of law, not a political referendum.

Doc 65, USAPA Reply in support of USAPA Motion to Dismiss:
This is USAPA’s Reply to the Plaintiffs’ Opposition to USAPA’s Motion to Dismiss. USAPA’s Motion to Dismiss is Doc 44; Plaintiffs’ Opposition is Doc 52. There are two main points to the Reply:

The Court previously decided that USAPA is not tied to the Nicolau Award which was an internal proceeding, binding only on the previous bargaining representative. The Court's decision is binding, and that defeats the Plaintiffs’ claim to the contrary.
The Plaintiffs’ claim, concerning its fears about the ultimate result of the McCaskill-Bond proceeding, is not ripe for the reasons previous stated by the Ninth Circuit in Addington I and by Judge Silver in the Declaratory Judgment Action.
The Reply also reiterates that any dispute concerning the 2005 Transition Agreement is a “minor dispute” under the Railway Labor Act, which must be submitted to the System Board of Adjustment, and that there is no merit to Plaintiffs’ belated claims for attorneys’ fees for cases they lost.

There will be a number of filings today (Friday, May 10) as the parties prepare for the May 14 hearing on Plaintiffs’ Motion of a Preliminary Injunction in Phoenix.

USAPA Communications

 

[AWE Dog]

Ok Snap, Come up with a list where the east loses the same amount of LOS as the NW pilots. I don't think your west brothers would go for it because it would look very much like DOH.

 

[Phoenix]

"Just sent the scabs an email telling them to take me off dues check-off. Hopefully I will owe them money when they go away."



Things have gone to far to forgive.

They will get what comes to them.

I will always have a list of their names.

I did not cause this.

I did not create this.

I did not want this.

They brought this on. Their actions brought this on.

And it will infect me until the end of my career.

Never forgotten.

Scum bags!

USAPA! "

A+ for passion. I think all West pilots should owe USAPA huge amounts of unpaid dues when it goes away. There are no more votes (that is what we hear the West say) and there is no way the company could fire anyone now because they will be too busy doing merger stuff, counting their money, and buying new vacation homes, yachts, and brandy.

No chance of being fired for failure to pay dues to a dying union, right? We all know you can normally be fired for refusing to pay dues... However, can you be fired for failing to pay past dues to a new union ??? ... evidently the poster thinks he won't be fired for refusing to pay those dues he owes USAPA as a precondition to become a member in good standing with APA.

Ergo... He thinks his obligations under a former union don't transfer to the new union. And APA won't/cannot enforce the binding requirements he was subject to under a former union...

Do you get it yet? He apparently will object to APA enforcing something he didn't like from the former union, but thinks USAPA must enforce something he likes from a former union. Hypocrite much?

 

[luvthe9]

"They take from us daily.

They have been allowed to take from us daily.

They cause harm at every opportunity.

Things have gone to far to forgive.

They will get what comes to them.

I will always have a list of their names.

I did not cause this.

I did not create this.

I did not want this.

They brought this on. Their actions brought this on.

And it will infect me until the end of my career.

Never forgotten.

Scum bags!

USAPA! "

That's just so profound!!!!

 

[snapthis]

A+ for passion. I think all West pilots should owe USAPA huge amounts of unpaid dues when it goes away. There are no more votes (that is what we hear the West say) and there is no way the company could fire anyone now because they will be too busy doing merger stuff, counting their money, and buying new vacation homes, yachts, and brandy.

No chance of being fired for failure to pay dues to a dying union, right? We all know you can normally be fired for refusing to pay dues... However, can you be fired for failing to pay past dues to a new union ??? ... evidently the poster thinks he won't be fired for refusing to pay those dues he owes USAPA as a precondition to become a member in good standing with APA.

Ergo... He thinks his obligations under a former union don't transfer to the new union. And APA won't/cannot enforce the binding requirements he was subject to under a former union...

Do you get it yet? He apparently will object to APA enforcing something he didn't like from the former union, but thinks USAPA must enforce something he likes from a former union. Hypocrite much?

I think it's a stupid gamble taking a dues holiday. That's up to them and they can take their chances considering USAPA's history, they are adults and can roll the dice. West pilots have cautioned these pilots as well and all one has to do is look at the past actions against these pilots.

ALPA did not do anything when some of you boasted about withholding dues payments up to a year prior to USAPA crawling on our property. Mr do-nothing Prater pulled a Parker and let you guys run all over them. West pilots took a stand. We aren't budging.

No compromise on the compromise, meaning man up and honor your agreements.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Just catching up on my reading of the case law cited by USAPA in their filing. Did any of you catch ‎Hanley v Continental Airlines? A union goes AGAINST an award (ala NIC,) takes Frontier employees that were ON THE STREET and puts them DOH (their FRONTIER DOH!) A group in the union sued, and lost. DOH is noted as a LUP, even if one group is disadvantaged.

I had not seen this one, after years of reading this stuff.

And to not spill too much of the surprise, there was another group on the same property that was NOT given DOH..can you say old man NIC!

Here was a case of one union stepping up and enforcing DOH, and being backed up by the courts.

But Silver probably won't be looking at any case law. It will be a quick and dirty hearing in which she declares ripeness and forces the NIC on all of us.

Greeter