April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion
- Thread starter Falcon
- Start date
- Status
Yes, just like I always have and always will. Except for a few, I have a lot of respect for the west guys....after all, I was one of them
Metroyet
Veteran
- Nov 1, 2008
- 2,571
- 5,664
Did you leave America West in the late 90's for the "greener pastures" of Stephen Wolf's New Us Air? That would explain a lot.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
Greeter mentioned there were no furloughed pilots at US Airways, I spent the past day and a half going through the transcripts below. Rather than listen to Usapian spin, read the record.
BEFORE THE ALPA ARBITRATION BOARD
2
3 - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
4 THE CREW MEMBERS OF :
5 US AIRWAYS :
6 Plaintiff, :
7 vs. :
8 THE CREW MEMBERS OF :
9 AMERICA WEST AIRLINES :
10 Defendant. :
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
12
13 HEARING
14
15 GEORGE NICOLAU, Chairman
16 CAPTAIN STEVE GILLEN, Pilot Neutral
17 CAPTAIN JIM BRUCIA, Pilot Neutral
18
19 Washington, D.C.
20 Monday, December 4, 2006
21 REPORTED BY:
22 DONALD R. THACKER
First of all, let's not be deceived by the
2 fact that the name of the company is US Airways.
3 America West and, outside investors, acquired US
4 Airways, there is no two ways about that.
5 I think the best place to look to
6 understand what the consequences for the merger was
7 on the US Airways pilots is the words of US Airways
8 own CEO, Mr. Lakefield said, quoted it in our brief,
9 I am going to short quote, I am going to read it
10 again here, he said "there were times when we felt
Page 32
1204ARB1
11 we would not be able to stay in business for more
12 than a few weeks. But we did, and what we have now
13 is far more than we could have hoped for."
14 As we sit here today US Airways pilots are
15 being recalled to fly aircraft they couldn't
16 possibly have acquired without this transaction.
17 As we sit here today US Airways pilots are
18 on the verge of obtaining literally hundreds of
19 millions of dollars in economic benefit just from
20 coming to parity with the America West collective
21 bargaining agreement.
So let's talk with the facts for a moment.
5 As I said, US Airways was a failed carrier as of
6 May 18th, the day before the merger announcement,
7 May 18th, 2005.
At the time of the merger announcement it
Page 28
1204ARB1
12 had 26 days of cash available, and I might add that
13 as of the day of the closing it had five days of
14 cash available to it.
15 It found itself in that circumstance, that
16 cash circumstance notwithstanding the fact that it
17 had sold off a significant chunk of its assets to
18 East Shore, otherwise known as Republic, for
19 $125 million. As we said in our opening statement,
20 we can all think back to the days of Pan Am when Pan
21 Am was busily selling off its real estate including
22 its building in Manhattan, we were involved in
_
36
1 negotiations during that time, we remember it well,
2 I am sure everybody in this room remembers it well,
3 it was burning its furniture in order to keep heat,
4 and it didn't -- it didn't succeed, burning the
5 furniture never works, it didn't work in Pan Am and
6 it wasn't going to work here.
10 During the course of bankruptcy two it
11 returned huge numbers of aircraft and had more
12 aircraft scheduled to be returned and when I say
13 returned, they were -- they were yanked, the company
14 hadn't hired a single pilot since the year 2000
15 notwithstanding retirement, notwithstanding the
16 attrition they had not hired a single pilot since
17 the year 2000, and a pilot's who had been hired as
Page 29
1204ARB1
18 far back as 2000 were on furlough. The early 2000
19 pilots were on furlough.
20 Critically, US Airways had no plan of
21 reorganization, they had no plan of reorganization,
22 they had missed several dates for the filing of a
_
37
1 plan of reorganization, and there was none there.
2 There was no viable plan of reorganization for US
3 Airways prior to the merger, and its only future,
4 absent this transaction was a controlled liquidation
5 of its assets.
18 The consequence to America West was really
19 exactly the opposite of the consequence, the
20 consequence to the America West pilots is the exact
21 opposite of the consequences to the US Airways
22 pilots.
42
1 America West, notwithstanding that it was
2 slate Todd grow to 161 aircraft by the end of 2007,
3 as a consequence of the order of the 22 A320
4 aircraft stopped growing, and the promotional
5 opportunities that would have been there had those
6 aircraft been delivered as scheduled disappeared.Did you leave US Airways in late 2004, leaving behind your 17 years of longevity and starting over at the brown pastures of AWA? That would explain a lot.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
In contrast to US Airways on the day prior
13 to the merger, there were no America West pilots on
14 furlough, America West of course like every other
15 carrier in the country had if you are lows following
16 September 11th, but those if you are lows didn't
17 last very long. Most of them, as I look back onto
18 the list, most of them lasted a couple of months,
19 none of them lasted for longer than a year.
20 Everybody was recalled by September of 2002, and
21 following the recall of the last furloughed pilot,
22 9-11 furloughed pilot America West had hired some
39
1 360 additional pilots.
2 In short, the airline was a functioning,
3 viable, competitive company that provided secure
4 jobs for its pilots and that was slated to provide
Page 31
1204ARB1
5 promotional opportunities as a result of the
6 delivery of the remainder of that order of 22 A320s
7 that had been partially delivered prior to the
8 merger announcement.
9 Those are about as stark a set of airlines
10 as one could imagine, in this airline environment.
11 You had one airline that was growing and was stable
12 and one airline that was, again with respect to our
13 colleagues, was a failed business, failed carrier,
14 and did not offer the prospect of any career
15 enhancement, let alone career stability to its
16 employees. Not just its pilots but to its employees
17 as a whole.
18 So what are the consequences of the
19 merger.
20 Q Because I think that is something else
21 that has to be taken into account, when assessing
22 how these lists should be put together.
.
5 I think the best place to look to
6 understand what the consequences for the merger was
7 on the US Airways pilots is the words of US Airways
8 own CEO, Mr. Lakefield said, quoted it in our brief,
9 I am going to short quote, I am going to read it
10 again here, he said "there were times when we felt
Page 32
1204ARB1
11 we would not be able to stay in business for more
12 than a few weeks. But we did, and what we have now
13 is far more than we could have hoped for."
14 As we sit here today US Airways pilots are
15 being recalled to fly aircraft they couldn't
16 possibly have acquired without this transaction.
17 As we sit here today US Airways pilots are
18 on the verge of obtaining literally hundreds of
19 millions of dollars in economic benefit just from
20 coming to parity with the America West collective
21 bargaining agreement. And that is the case
22 notwithstanding the fact that the US Airways pilots
41
1 collective bargaining agreement on a stand alone
2 basis, if you want to assume that they could have
3 stood alone, we don't assume it but if you want to
4 assume it for purposes of thinking about what I am
5 saying, the US Airways pilots collective bargaining
6 agreement was not amendable until 2010,
7 notwithstanding that, they will be the inheritors of
8 hundreds of millions of dollars of pay and benefit
9 increases as a consequence literally just of coming
10 to parity, putting to one side the question of what
11 additional increases may be negotiated as a
12 consequence of the merger. I I am not making any
13 predictions obviously about what those negotiations
14 might produce, all I can say is that they are, the
15 parties are in negotiations and that proposing wage
16 increases over and above what it takes to bring the
Page 33
1204ARB1
17 US Airways pilots to parity.
18 The consequence to America West was really
19 exactly the opposite of the consequence, the
20 consequence to the America West pilots is the exact
21 opposite of the consequences to the US Airways
22 pilots.
42
1 America West, notwithstanding that it was
2 slate Todd grow to 161 aircraft by the end of 2007,
3 as a consequence of the order of the 22 A320
4 aircraft stopped growing, and the promotional
5 opportunities that would have been there had those
6 aircraft been delivered as scheduled disappeared.
7 Additionally on the economic front, again
8 I am not going to try to predict what the America
9 West pilots would have been able to negotiate on
10 their own. The only thing I can say is, and I think
11 this really goes without saying, there are scarce
12 dollars that are available for bargaining over
13 wages, and it is going to take a huge number of
14 those dollars in order to bring the you US Airways
15 pilots to parity with the America West pilots and
16 the use of those scarce dollars to bring the US
17 Airways pilots to parity with the America West
18 pilots will mean just in the normal course of
19 things, we are all big boys and girls, we have all
20 been through these situations before, it will mean
21 nothing more and nothing less than the fact that
22 there will be less dollars available for wage
Page 34
1204ARB1
43
1 increases and benefit improvements for the America
2 West pilots than there would have been under
3 alternative scenarios.
4 Those are the facts, those are critical
5 facts, those are the facts on which we say and we
6 believe one has to base an assessment of what the
7 pre merger career expectations of the two pilots
8 were and what the consequences of the merger were
9 for the two pilot groups.
Res Judicata
Veteran
I'm in neither pasture.
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
- 2,148
Somebody opened the gate!
electricjet98, on 03 May 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:
While you wish to move our #1 guy down the list to about 800-900 or so? So nice of you!
There's nothing at all "situational" about ethics, nor have ethics any concern for being "nice". You either have them or you don't...and imo you don't. Were I number one anywhere, but had less time worked than 800-900 or so of another outfit that was to be combined; I'd not be whining about being placed below them....nor whooping it up in some bizarre little Fantasyland, insanely pretending myself some noble "knight" or "spartan", or that I even had ANY actual ethics whatsoever (much less being any farcical paradigm of "Integrity") if I were seeking the insanely inflated "seniority" you're so greedily after. I believe in respecting the work, the experience and the contributions of others. You don't...Period.
I gave up on any suggestions to grow up, so just rant away, mighty little "spartans" and noble "knights"...and please don't sic the dreaded "dire wolves" on me.
PS: If your read the preceeding with incredulity, shocked and yeah-sure, utter disbelief; then you have no ethics, and are merely a purely opportunistic individual = " Were I number one anywhere, but had less time worked than 800-900 or so of another outfit that was to be combined; I'd not be whining about being placed below them..."
While you wish to move our #1 guy down the list to about 800-900 or so? So nice of you!
There's nothing at all "situational" about ethics, nor have ethics any concern for being "nice". You either have them or you don't...and imo you don't. Were I number one anywhere, but had less time worked than 800-900 or so of another outfit that was to be combined; I'd not be whining about being placed below them....nor whooping it up in some bizarre little Fantasyland, insanely pretending myself some noble "knight" or "spartan", or that I even had ANY actual ethics whatsoever (much less being any farcical paradigm of "Integrity") if I were seeking the insanely inflated "seniority" you're so greedily after. I believe in respecting the work, the experience and the contributions of others. You don't...Period.
I gave up on any suggestions to grow up, so just rant away, mighty little "spartans" and noble "knights"...and please don't sic the dreaded "dire wolves" on me.
PS: If your read the preceeding with incredulity, shocked and yeah-sure, utter disbelief; then you have no ethics, and are merely a purely opportunistic individual = " Were I number one anywhere, but had less time worked than 800-900 or so of another outfit that was to be combined; I'd not be whining about being placed below them..."
Have fun kids! It's good to see you enjoying your hobby. At least you're not in prison or on drugs..well...that last is admittedly speculative.
You just spent the last day and a half reading about spilled milk and water under the bridge outside the 9th circuit court and Wye River.
American just recalled its last pilot and is now working its way back up to those that deferred.
"Last November the company's vice president of flight, John Hale, said that American planned to recall an additional 40 pilots a month "for the foreseeable future" because of expected retirements and "operational needs." Ask Marty about this during the meet and greed.
http://finance.yahoo...-211250388.html
electricjet98
Senior
"If your read the preceeding with incredulity, shocked and yeah-sure, utter disbelief"
Why would we Michael? We've learned to expect this type of pompous dribble from you and you never disappoint!
PI Brat, found the angry west f/o you encountered in ATL. These subject types used to be called sore loser's.
When you have pilots that think they are real attorney's clerking for the west law firm, you get the following hopeless garbage legal briefs filed by the Harper, Jacob groupies today.
"V. Conclusion
Neither Airways nor USAPA offers a valid reason for this Court to withhold injunctive relief. The West Pilots respectfully ask the Court to either grant their motion for a preliminary injunction with a nominal security bond or to enter final judgment and issue an injunction that does not require a bond. A proposed form of order for the
injunction is separately filed.
Dated this 3rd day of May, 2013.
POLSINELLI PC
/s/ Andrew S. Jacob
By _________________"
The proposed order offered and written by america west pilot law clerks. Pilot law clerks, nice amateur attempt at legal proceedings.
Sad, watching the fish flop on shore out of water.
"V. Conclusion
Neither Airways nor USAPA offers a valid reason for this Court to withhold injunctive relief. The West Pilots respectfully ask the Court to either grant their motion for a preliminary injunction with a nominal security bond or to enter final judgment and issue an injunction that does not require a bond. A proposed form of order for the
injunction is separately filed.
Dated this 3rd day of May, 2013.
POLSINELLI PC
/s/ Andrew S. Jacob
By _________________"
The proposed order offered and written by america west pilot law clerks. Pilot law clerks, nice amateur attempt at legal proceedings.
Sad, watching the fish flop on shore out of water.
- Status
