APA, USAPA and the Ghost of TWA

[PullUp]

So when is a BK not a BK? When you have money in the bank?
A BK is when liabilities outnumber assets. IOW, when you have more debt than means to pay it off. 
All those orders for airplanes? Debt obligations. 
Yes, pension obligations, too. More Debt.
So, when you add it all up ($$ in bank, aircraft value, real estate, and all the other things that could be sold for cash) - and realize that airlines don't actually own (pay for and hold title to) much because they lease most everything - and subtract what the debt obligations were, and you find your company upside down financially. And looking forward, the forecast calls for worsening conditions.
You also must realize that when BK is entered, control is given up to the judge and the creditors (who actually own the company). If AA's creditors thought that they could walk away with more money by shutting the doors, they would have done it. You scoff at that notion, but it is the truth and has happened to other carriers.
So, for convenience or not, AA was technically broke when it filed for protection from its creditors. 
As I see it, standalone would have brought more concessions, downsizing, and corporate spinoffs.
The support from investors for instant growth and management regime change enabled AA's failing business model to be remolded into a competitor equal to Delta and United.
Don't spit on the US employees who helped you through the BK. It's time to work together to improve everyone's lot in life from this point forward.
Cheers.

 

[luvthe9]

luvthe 9,
 
"good letter"?
 
Are you serious? The author needs a lobotomy after claiming USAPA "saved my pension".
 
What a deal, my A-Fund was frozen. .......for now. Maybe the Mensa boy and his hysterics can give me the Vegas odds on maintaining it during the next downturn and BK with $5 Billion in the ATM machine. The bottom 2/3 is PO'd that it didn't go to the PBGC with better (but not 100% sure) odds of a payout.
 
Get the boy some Ritalin please.

. You will need the Ritalin when you see how many numbers you are going to lose soon, that should worry you. The westies are talking about how they can't wait to get a hold of you wide body's . For us on the east we realize we have no right's to them as this is our sixth merge we get it. Arbitration will hurt you. For the record we wanted nothing to do with this merge.

 

[luvthe9]

It's practically a given that an arbitration panel will merge the lists of US Airways pilots with the APA seniority list.    Which list of the US Airways pilots will be used to merge with the AA APA list?   Why, the same arbitration result from last time - the Nic list.   May not be George Nicolau who writes the final decision, but you can bank on the Nic list being used as the starting point.   Those who conduct arbitration for a living tend to hold the results of arbitration in somewhat higher regard than does the USAPA.    Nicolau's list will be combined with the APA list by whomever writes the decision.    
 
An even bigger upcoming shock for many APA pilots is that their relative position on the new combined list may be hurt slightly by the fact that AA was in Chapter 11 when the merger took place, and had AA emerged from Ch 11 and then merged with US, the APA pilots might have fared slightly better in the APA-USAPA SLI arbitration. 

. Clueless.

 

[Claxon]

It's practically a given that an arbitration panel will merge the lists of US Airways pilots with the APA seniority list.    Which list of the US Airways pilots will be used to merge with the AA APA list?   Why, the same arbitration result from last time - the Nic list.   May not be George Nicolau who writes the final decision, but you can bank on the Nic list being used as the starting point.   Those who conduct arbitration for a living tend to hold the results of arbitration in somewhat higher regard than does the USAPA.    Nicolau's list will be combined with the APA list by whomever writes the decision.    
 
An even bigger upcoming shock for many APA pilots is that their relative position on the new combined list may be hurt slightly by the fact that AA was in Chapter 11 when the merger took place, and had AA emerged from Ch 11 and then merged with US, the APA pilots might have fared slightly better in the APA-USAPA SLI arbitration.

True, but not the Nic list part.
The west pilots are going to push hard on the bankruptcy of AA. They fully expect a shot at the bigger equipment right off the bat.

 

[Mach85ER]

. For the record we wanted nothing to do with this merge.

 
 
It would be my first choice not to merge either.The problem is that market changes would have marginalized both our carriers to 2nd rate positions behind UAL and DAL, you'd have little chance busting past your $125 hour barrow body Captain pay and we would have little leverage to add to ours. My bet is the big money involved would have really screwed both of us through a codeshare agreement after BA injected cash into both of us, then brought LCC into Oneworld. Record is there stating BA was ready to move.
 
As for the West and widebodies, I figure that. I also figure your side will start of with no WB fences and near DOH. Please state your version of a merge including AWA because I have no idea what you guys want besides the NIC exiled to the King Tut tour.
 
We are also going to have crazies on all sides mouthing off. We all need to take them with a grain of salt.

 

[luvthe9]

It would be my first choice not to merge either.The problem is that market changes would have marginalized both our carriers to 2nd rate positions behind UAL and DAL, you'd have little chance busting past your $125 hour barrow body Captain pay and we would have little leverage to add to ours. My bet is the big money involved would have really screwed both of us through a codeshare agreement after BA injected cash into both of us, then brought LCC into Oneworld. Record is there stating BA was ready to move.
 
As for the West and widebodies, I figure that. I also figure your side will start of with no WB fences and near DOH. Please state your version of a merge including AWA because I have no idea what you guys want besides the NIC exiled to the King Tut tour.
 
We are also going to have crazies on all sides mouthing off. We all need to take them with a grain of salt.

For most of us west excluded of course as they want to go right to the top, we want DOH with C and R, you keep your big planes, 5 yr fence or longer is fine by most of us. No one here wants to bump anyone out of their seat either. I think we have a very large number of retirements over the next several years on our side and you guys start to kick in big numbers in a few years. Does this sound to unreasonable? We will always be 2nd rate with our management, you'll soon learn about that.

 

[Mach85ER]

"we want DOH with C and R"
 
c and r?
 
length of fence, widebody or everything?

 

[Piedmont1984]

It would be my first choice not to merge either.The problem is that market changes would have marginalized both our carriers to 2nd rate positions behind UAL and DAL, you'd have little chance busting past your $125 hour barrow body Captain pay and we would have little leverage to add to ours. My bet is the big money involved would have really screwed both of us through a codeshare agreement after BA injected cash into both of us, then brought LCC into Oneworld. Record is there stating BA was ready to move.
 
As for the West and widebodies, I figure that. I also figure your side will start of with no WB fences and near DOH. Please state your version of a merge including AWA because I have no idea what you guys want besides the NIC exiled to the King Tut tour.
 
We are also going to have crazies on all sides mouthing off. We all need to take them with a grain of salt.

I retire in 2017 and have no expectation of touching one of your widebodies (talkin airplanes here). Not everyone wants a widebody slot and many retire off narrow body equipment by choice. I could hold a W/B today, but spending my last three years sleep deprived has kept me from exercising that option.

I think most expect and would be okay with an equipment fence lasting several years. Good conditions and restrictions should address most other issues. When the dust settles, of all the things that go into what constitutes your seniority and mine, how long we have been working here should be at or near the top.

What do you think?

'84

 

[Piedmont1984]

BTW, by the time a fence comes down and your attrition kicks into high gear, our DOH advantage will no longer exist.

 

[luvthe9]

"we want DOH with C and R"
 
c and r?
 
length of fence, widebody or everything?

conditions and restrictions. Well how does that sound?

 

[traderjake]

 For the record we wanted nothing to do with this merge.

 
 

luvthe 9,
 
"good letter"?
 
Are you serious? The author needs a lobotomy after claiming USAPA "saved my pension".

 
Sorry our crazy uncle "luvthe9" got out of his room again. 
 
The overwhelming majority of pilots are very happy about the merger.

 

[Mach85ER]

conditions and restrictions. Well how does that sound?

 
 
So your DOH 1989 FO goes ahead a lineholding  AA 1989 757 Captain?
 
Yes or No

 

[eolesen]

Agree that the Nic will be used as a starting point by any arbitrator, and that there's going to be a dovetail at best. DOH ain't gonna happen.

And no, to WT's "gotta know now" question, I wouldn't expect this to drag out as long as either US/HP and UA/CO.

For starters, the numbers don't support the gamesmanship of creating a new union just because you don't like the arbitration results.

Second, you won't see the process paralyzed by two MEC's within the same union refusing to come to an agreement.

 

[MCI transplant]

AirCal was a dovetail based on career expectations, not DOH. So was TWA, as much as the TWA guys don't like to admit it.

Let's qualify that  eolesen! ----- That statement may be true of the TWA pilots, but no where near true of the TWA Mechanics, or Hostess!  The  McCaskill- Bond legislation was written as a result of the AA/TWA Seniority controversy, and was meant to  smooth any future transition! And provide a "fair" integration of work forces!

 

[MCI transplant]

Agree that the Nic will be used as a starting point by any arbitrator, and that there's going to be a dovetail at best. DOH ain't gonna happen.

And no, to WT's "gotta know now" question, I wouldn't expect this to drag out as long as either US/HP and UA/CO.

For starters, the numbers don't support the gamesmanship of creating a new union just because you don't like the arbitration results.

Second, you won't see the process paralyzed by two MEC's within the same union refusing to come to an agreement.

eoleson, just what is your definition of "dovetail"?  And just how would that relate to the intent of Bond- McCaskell?--- Just curious!