any rampers want to talk IAM vs TWU?

[737823]

I agree, Unions must merge or die, but merging does not stop the basic problem that Unions have. Unions simply do not deliver for workers. Union executives make huge salaries compared to the members and simply stand by or even endorse deals that lower members standards of living because they dont want to take the risk that calling for a strike entails. They are averse to leading strikes because they dont have faith in their members, in other words they have no faith in their own ability to lead.

Workers will not make gains if employers are confident that Unions will not strike to defend or enhance working conditions and compensation. If workers dont see unions as a means to better conditions and pay they will not join or support unions.

Here at AA unionized line mechanics make far less than their non-union counterparts at Fed Ex, Jet Blue and Delta. If the TWU were to walk up to them and say "Hey, join the TWU, sure you will have to fork over $600/year in dues and give up half your sick days, vacation, Holidays, pay more for your medical and take somewhere between a $5 and $13/hr cut in pay but we will get them to employ more mechanics" do you think they would get many card signers? Would you sign? Unions need to remember its wages and working conditions that get members to support Unions, not increasing the size of the Union or amount of people paying dues. While seeing people furloughed is painful its necissary to preserve wages and working conditions if you want the union to stay strong. Recall and seniority provide some protection but by cutting everyone pay they may be left with a larger membership but its a larger membership that is dissapointed at being in the Union. Its extremely destructive to Unionism but it keeps Union leaders with annual pay raises and six figure salaries, for a while. Its shortsighted.

Many union officials are dillusional, self serving individuals only out to maintain their cushy positions at the expense of the membership they claim to represent (effectively their customers). To your credit, you post on here with your full name, provide the membership timely information and take positions when appropriate. Why can't the TWU international do the same? Seems they are more concerned with appeasing AA management than fighting for your interests. Why haven't Jim Little and Don Videtich been more involved in the M&R negotiations and took a stance against abrogation? At least people in Finance are upfront that we are pursuing our own agendas in our careers. Again while I may disagree with you, I respect your positions.

Josh

 

[Overspeed]

Interesting development with WN rampers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505244_162-57456152/union-says-southwest-wants-to-outsource-some-jobs/

 

[TWU informer]

Interesting development with WN rampers.

http://www.cbsnews.c...urce-some-jobs/

All the TWU needs to do is offer 25% of them to make alot less pay to keep the jobs.


Call them LBS
Lower Bag Smashers


Concessions for jobs all the way!

 

[Buck]

Or have the Teamsters come in and organize them since they are not affiliates of the AFL-CIO, or are they, then it is not a raid. If the TWU cannot perform at WN then out they need to go.

 

[OgieJFK]

can I ask a dumb question?

If AMR Pilots are on the verge of settling for no layoff guarantees and a 15% pay increase, then why did AMR rampers settle for what I understand to be 6,000 lost jobs and a 2% decrease in pay?

Can someone clarify? Where is the justice in that?

regards,

Fixed that for you.

 

[OgieJFK]

As for why the AA rampers settled for the LBO. IMHO it comes down to a couple of reasons. The biggest reason is leadership of the locals. The AMTs are blessed to have guy's like Bob Owens and Chuck Schalk. They at least tried to inform the AMT membership either here or with youtube videos. In 2003 Tim Gillespie took the lead and sold us down the river. This POS got rewarded with an international spot. In 2012 not one ramp local president stepped up and took the lead on this rounds of givebacks. Darrin Tiny Tears (DFW) is still crying over the TWU saving his family from Katrina and hoping a international spot is given to him. Sidney Chickenez (MIA) wouldn't give an opinion either way cause he didn't want to sway anyone. Is that REAL leadership? A real leader makes the call and lives with it. They don't fence sit and play the " you guys voted for it " card.

The second biggest reason is most AA rampers are fracking ignorant. Most do not take the time to educate themselves on the issues and how it effects the job long term.

The third biggest reason is most AA rampers are really non union people at heart. When push comes to shove with a supervisor over a issue the first words out of most of theirs mouths is "Yes Sir".

The fourth biggest reason is AA rampers have had a big influx of 3rd world people since the really late 80s. Call it racist or whatever you will but most of these people care about one thing and one thing only....Flight benefits. Others its all about the CSW and putting a 100 hours of work a week.

The fifth reason is part time rampers. Some hold a better job with better benefits. So to them the job is just about a little extra pay, the flight benefits , or extra cash while they collect retirement pay from their real job.

The sixth reason is the criminal rampers. This one is probably a very very tiny percentage. You really think these guys who've been busted since the 2003 givebacks voted no on that free bankruptcy AA had? Of course not. They voted Yes cause they didn't want it to effect their criminal business. As for the 2012 givebacks....I couldn't say if this still applies. When the feds catch the next batch of scum you'll know which way they voted.

Its late and i've ranted enough. I haven't even gotten into the dopes that didn't vote cause they didn't want to feel responsible for someone getting laid off or losing the buyout package.

 

[Bob Owens]

And all the work that OSMs do at AA is done by who at US? DL? CO? WN? FDX? UPS? Nobody, because that work is outsourced. Are you suggesting that we agree that all OSM jobs should be eliminated and their work outsourced at AA?

So if we kept that work in house by allowing it to be done by workers with a maxed out rate of $22/hr,why do we all, even the guys doing line work, have to agree to work for much less than other carriers? I thought you have been claiming that we all should work for less to keep these jobs that would otherwise be outsourced in house? Why would they outsource those jobs when the OSM top rate is lower than many MRO rates? Sounds like a win win for the company, pay MRO rates for work that would go to an MRO, and save the difference in the markup,then use the fact that you keep it in house to get a discount on the work that others don't outsource. Omit the fact that of the mechanics you employ many of them top out at rates that are $10/ hr below the rate you are telling everyone you pay your mechanics.

What's really a kick in the nuts is that even though this saves the company tons of money by keeping it done in house at rates much lower than they would pay an MRO the company will still be saying that their maintenance labor costs are high. If they outsourced it 100% would come off labor costs, so even if they paid these workers minimum wage it would still drive up labor costs. Right now they are claiming that both their total maintenance costs and maintenance labor costs are higher than competitors even though our wages are much lower, and our "average wage" is much much lower when you average in the OSM wage rate. The high maintenance costs are driven by old aircraft and the decision to upgrade the cabins and install winglets on planes that are headed to the desert. As the new planes come in maintenance costs and labor costs will drop however our labor costs, simply due to the larger number of workers will still look high. AA more than likely will not outsource as much as their ask, they testified that they never even got bids for the work, what they are trying to do is use the threat of rifs to gain concessions. My money is on AA looking to hire way before the term of their LBO whether we sell ourselves, and the profession out, or secure compensation comparable to the rest of the industry. Either way thousands of mechanics will be leaving and more than likely new entrants will not be coming in fast enough to make up for the exodus.

 

[mike33]

So, Tim? Why have you NOW only come to the AA Tarmack and not before the elections were over? I believe you won PHL by 2 votes. Correct?.....what makes that such a victory?....
There is a lot more to this story. Try not to proclaim to much ....... "The Floor is Yours " ( as they say )

Ok, so lets set the record straight. Tim, you claim to have won the Phl vote during the elections. That may be true of the regular vote as counted, but, you failed to mention that there were 20-25 votes that were impounded for various reasons. Verification of retirees that are still in good standing with their locals is one reason for impounding a vote. Once those are verified, you will have finished 2nd in PHL, Not 1st..!

Am i right? or Wrong?

It's moot at this point but i for one like to have correct information out to the public..... Especially if its on an AA forum!

Facts
Facts
and more...Facts

 

[roabilly]

Ok, so lets set the record straight. Tim, you claim to have won the Phl vote during the elections. That may be true of the regular vote as counted, but, you failed to mention that there were 20-25 votes that were impounded for various reasons. Verification of retirees that are still in good standing with their locals is one reason for impounding a vote. Once those are verified, you will have finished 2nd in PHL, Not 1st..!

Am i right? or Wrong?

It's moot at this point but i for one like to have correct information out to the public..... Especially if its on an AA forum!

Facts
Facts
and more...Facts

To all AA brothers and sisters... be very inquisitive when reading any Tim Nelson post!

Keep yourselves informed, and don't let political rhetoric blind your perception of reality. Some people have agendas that extend well beyond the apparent!

 

[Overspeed]

So if we kept that work in house by allowing it to be done by workers with a maxed out rate of $22/hr,why do we all, even the guys doing line work, have to agree to work for much less than other carriers? I thought you have been claiming that we all should work for less to keep these jobs that would otherwise be outsourced in house? Why would they outsource those jobs when the OSM top rate is lower than many MRO rates? Sounds like a win win for the company, pay MRO rates for work that would go to an MRO, and save the difference in the markup,then use the fact that you keep it in house to get a discount on the work that others don't outsource. Omit the fact that of the mechanics you employ many of them top out at rates that are $10/ hr below the rate you are telling everyone you pay your mechanics.

What's really a kick in the nuts is that even though this saves the company tons of money by keeping it done in house at rates much lower than they would pay an MRO the company will still be saying that their maintenance labor costs are high. If they outsourced it 100% would come off labor costs, so even if they paid these workers minimum wage it would still drive up labor costs. Right now they are claiming that both their total maintenance costs and maintenance labor costs are higher than competitors even though our wages are much lower, and our "average wage" is much much lower when you average in the OSM wage rate. The high maintenance costs are driven by old aircraft and the decision to upgrade the cabins and install winglets on planes that are headed to the desert. As the new planes come in maintenance costs and labor costs will drop however our labor costs, simply due to the larger number of workers will still look high. AA more than likely will not outsource as much as their ask, they testified that they never even got bids for the work, what they are trying to do is use the threat of rifs to gain concessions. My money is on AA looking to hire way before the term of their LBO whether we sell ourselves, and the profession out, or secure compensation comparable to the rest of the industry. Either way thousands of mechanics will be leaving and more than likely new entrants will not be coming in fast enough to make up for the exodus.

First thing, its not the wage rate alone. It is the total cost of labor which includes benefits. The MRO fully allocated labor rate is lower than AA's fully allocated OSM rate. You know that if you had been paying attention to the TWU's economists and advisors that have been brought in for you to consult with. Again, you cannot cherry pick the facts you want and omit that the each contract must be applied in its totality. You want WN wages? The offer that to AA. Tell them you want four lines of airframe overhaul in-house, outsource all engines, and outsource all components. Easy Bob, now sell that to TUL and AFW.

The reduction of older airframes and engines will inherently lower labor costs. That's coming for sure and AA will require fewer AMTs for a time. That will offset much of the need for new AMTs. On refurbs of cabins and winglets, both those things are capitalized expenses including the labor and don't drive up AA's maintenance costs. Those costs hit AMR's P&L. Winglets also pay for themselves in lower fuel costs rather quickly. So you would have AA increase your wages and raise costs and put off installing winglets that increase AA's ability to lower operating costs and their long term survivability? Where did you get your MBA?

 

[Bob Owens]

First thing, its not the wage rate alone. It is the total cost of labor which includes benefits. The MRO fully allocated labor rate is lower than AA's fully allocated OSM rate. You know that if you had been paying attention to the TWU's economists and advisors that have been brought in for you to consult with. Again, you cannot cherry pick the facts you want and omit that the each contract must be applied in its totality. You want WN wages? The offer that to AA. Tell them you want four lines of airframe overhaul in-house, outsource all engines, and outsource all components. Easy Bob, now sell that to TUL and AFW.

The reduction of older airframes and engines will inherently lower labor costs. That's coming for sure and AA will require fewer AMTs for a time. That will offset much of the need for new AMTs. On refurbs of cabins and winglets, both those things are capitalized expenses including the labor and don't drive up AA's maintenance costs. Those costs hit AMR's P&L. Winglets also pay for themselves in lower fuel costs rather quickly. So you would have AA increase your wages and raise costs and put off installing winglets that increase AA's ability to lower operating costs and their long term survivability? Where did you get your MBA?

Who said anything about WN? Our OSMs make half of what WN mechanics make.

Are you claiming that the MROs CHARGE AA less than what it costs AA for an OSM?

Are you also claiming that when AA posts how much they paid to their employees that they back out all the fully allocated costs from Wages paid? Are you saying that when they do mods and refurbishments thats also not part of maintenance costs? If so how do you know that and where exactly do those monies show up?

Are you saying that Wages and Maintenance costs dont hit AMRs P&L?



Yes, I would have AA put off putting winglets on planes they are going to dump and puy us more money so we can insure OUR long, and short, term survivability. I see competitors who are making profits fly 757s without winglets all the time.

Where did you get your MBA? If an MBA tells you that taking paycuts helps insure your long term financial survivability would you actually believe him?

 

[Overspeed]

Who said anything about WN? Our OSMs make half of what WN mechanics make.

Are you claiming that the MROs CHARGE AA less than what it costs AA for an OSM?

Are you also claiming that when AA posts how much they paid to their employees that they back out all the fully allocated costs from Wages paid? Are you saying that when they do mods and refurbishments thats also not part of maintenance costs? If so how do you know that and where exactly do those monies show up?

Are you saying that Wages and Maintenance costs dont hit AMRs P&L?



Yes, I would have AA put off putting winglets on planes they are going to dump and puy us more money so we can insure OUR long, and short, term survivability. I see competitors who are making profits fly 757s without winglets all the time.

Where did you get your MBA? If an MBA tells you that taking paycuts helps insure your long term financial survivability would you actually believe him?

The work our OSMs do at AA is work that WN outsources at lower cost to MROs so the in-house AMTs at WN can make higher rates.

Yes MRO labor rates have been published in AW&ST as around $55/hour on a time and material basis. AA's fully allocated OSM rate is significantly higher. You have been supplied that breakdown many times.

Maintenance costs are for the upkeep of the AA fleet. Mods like winglets, MAUI, and CIP are capitalized over a period of years which means the cost does not hit all in one year. The labor, material, and overhead used for this work is charged to AMR's P&L not M&E's budget. You have been told this many times in meetings I am sure.

Yes maintenance costs hit AMR's P&L but you are not being asked to address all of AMR's P&L, just M&E and specifically labor.

When the decision to put winglets on was made around 2007, all the 757s were in the fleet plan. The ex-TWA 757s were not in the plan however the lessor paid to have them put on. So which winglets were you not going to install in 2007? All the 757s were in the long range fleet plan.