An interesting thought to the pilot

[Barberpole]

Aqua,

I'm not alleging anything. I know for fact that last week a number of EVP's believe the EC has the power to throw out the award and wanted the EC to take that action. Furthermore, the list has grown over the weekend for those who support this approach to solve the problem.

Then the parties would be ordered to re-enter negotiations and possibly mediation/arbitration.

Will the EC do it? I do not know, but apparently the potential has grown over the weekend.

Personally, I prefer a permanent fence with shared growth and shared scope protection. Why? Each pilot group keeps its pre-merger career expecatation and there is no windfall for either pilot group. I believe this concept is fair. Would you agree with that?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

NO....! If you are in fact right that several EVP's are advocating throwing out the award then you have confirmed my long standing belief that pilots in general are not too savy when it comes to dealing with real world issues outside the cockpit. Oh well....hopefully they don't destroy 75 years of Alpa history by ignoring their own constitution.....

What if the US Government decided to throw out the next election and appoint GW for a 3rd term because they didn't 'like the outcome?' What if California or Texas decided they no longer wanted to be a part of the US because their pick didn't win? Alpa is a respected union with obligations to all of its members, but most importantly, must abide by its own rules if it is to have any credibility in the industry.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Barberpole,

Some EVP's believe they have the authority to throw out the award if the Merger Policy was not followed and one pilot group recieved a "windfall".

Moreover, an EVP emailed me the EC had a legal briefing by ALPA attorney's prior to the May 21 presentations, where I believe this subject was discussed in "closed session" without the US Airways MEC Officers/Merger Committee and AWA MEC Officers/Merger Committee in attendance.

_____

Bob,

Bob said: "As to this next month in which ALPA wishes the two MECs to meet and try to come up with a modification to the award it is not going to happen. Just as the east is unified like never before to get this thing to go away so is the west unified as never before and the membership is not about to let our union, our company and our leaders put us into a position of "bending over" once again."

USA320Pilot comments: Bob, if true then neither pilot group will move and the pilots will remain status quo. The large majority of the East pilots are ready to let the union and company implosion begin because if nothing else the US Airways pilots will likely decertify ALPA, attempt to decertify AWA ALPA, file a lawsuit, and never agree to a joint contract.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ClueByFour]

700UW,

Time will tell, but my information comes from members of the ALPA EC and US Airways MEC.

Wait--won't those the same sources that prompted you to tell me I had no idea what I was talking about when I basically predicted the exact outcome of the Nicolau award?

This information? (thread beginning: http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...20919&st=0)

One of two things will happen moving forward. Take it to the bank:

1. The EC is going to say that they cannot interfere any further.

2. In the event that they attempt to either set aside the award or "sit" on it, they will lose a DFR lawsuit to the HP pilots. Take it to the bank.

Rest assured, the quiet AWA MEC and their legal counsel understand their position and it's superiority far better than the "blustering old men" who did their entire pilot group the disservice they are now trying to obtain a "mulligan" on, which was clear to any informed observers when it was happening. It remains clear now.

 

[pilot]

If the case is so black and white why on earth is the West even countering ANYTHING being posted on here? Just shut up and let us wallow in our foolishness.

Done deal then. The list will stand. No doubt about it. Done deal. The EC is blowing smoke and buying time. The East pilots are doing the same. The list will stand.

Good for you West guys! Congrats on the list. You deserve everything you got. Working for such a great company lead by such a great airline guy like Doug. He had the good forsight to buy USAirways and put you all in a great position for your careers.

And too bad for us Easties. We also deserved what the list brought us. Imagine trying for a LOS list and using seniority as a base for an airline pilot career. What in the world were we thinking?

Now lets cut out this arguing and get to work helping our great leader turn this into the lowest cost carrier in the world!

 

[USA320Pilot]

Pilot,

Great post! After all the AWA pilots have always used date of hire and tenure (even while they were in bankruptcy) to bid their equipment type, seat position, monthly schedules, daily schedules, annual vacation, and now pass riding, etc.

It has worked at AWA since the early eighties, but why use that system now with fences, shared growth, a no bump, no flush provision and scope protections because even though they used it in the past, it is unfair.

However, there is one point I do not understand...if the West pilots believe the Nicolau Award will stand why are there so many West pilot posts and emotion? Furthermore, why be upset with the EC's 14-1 position?

Maybe we should have a "boom"!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[oldiebutgoody]

What's a DFR lawsuit?

 

[BoeingBoy]

A suit claiming that the union failed in it's Duty of Fair Representation - i.e. the union is not supposed to discriminate between members or groups of members in it's representation, and if a member or group of members feel that it has failed that standard they can file a DFR suit.

Jim

 

[Bob Loblaw]

'pilot' posts:
If the case is so black and white why on earth is the West even countering ANYTHING being posted on here? Just shut up and let us wallow in our foolishness.

Imagine trying for a LOS list and using seniority as a base for an airline pilot career. What in the world were we thinking?
---------------------------------

Pilot,

The arguing is FUN and that is why we are all here. The board would cease to exist if we just sat back and watched the world go by!

I think almost everyone understands and sympathizes with the predicament we find ourselves in. I think what many can't understand is the statement that you and others make over and over again - "imagine...using seniority as a base..."

While it makes perfect sense to do so it stopped making sense when the arbitrator specifically told the East's merger committee and attorney that he would not base his award on such a position and to please come back with another. That's some pretty plain language from an arbitrator and the directive should have been taken seriously by the east leadership.

I don't for a minute believe this will end airline life as we know it nor this company. Everyone always says a merger is bad and much worse than you could imagine. I don't see the current dilemma as that big of a deal for either side. If this is as bad as a merger can get then I'm pleasantly surprised. I expected things to be much, much worse than they are currently are.

I've actually been encouraged by the general attitude of the pilots on both sides. What we see here is the fringe and is in no way representative of the average pilot for either side. And that is the value of this board. To vent and get it all out. The average USAir pilot is not represented on this board or among the 400 or so at Herndon the other week, nor is the average AWA pilot represented on this board. Cooler heads do and always will prevail. I'm not concerned about the future of our two pilot groups nor the company's health except for outside influences beyond our control.

Bob

 

[CactusFlyr]

I must admit, this board is some great entertainment. GO SPURS.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Clue,

What you fail to say is that the EC may conclude the list does not comply with ALPA Merger Policy and many, not a majority, but many EVP's after discussion with Counsel believe they can throw out the Nicolau Award.

Furthermore, nobody can force the US Airways pilots to reach a JNC TA, which prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented before at least the amendable date of CBA/LOA 93. Even then the US Airways pilots could reserve the right to continue JNC negotiations for a long time or maybe enter into Section VI negotiations.

The last time Doug Parker entered Section VI negotiations it took four years to get a deal past the amendable date.

Furthermore, the EC may elect to not forward the Award to the Company, the East pilots could decertify ALPA, the East pilots could obtain a new union, the East pilots could file a lawsuit against ALPA, the East pilots could attempt to force a new union on the AWA pilots, and other options.

Furthemore, the company could implode and go boom!

Yes, there is more to the story...

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Yes, there is more to the story...

Regards,

USA320Pilot [/font]
[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's always more to any story including this one. But you're working way too hard to come up with possibilities because there aren't as many as you are dreaming up. I seriously doubt your MEC is working as hard on this as you are!

Bob

 

[oldiebutgoody]

A suit claiming that the union failed in it's Duty of Fair Representation - i.e. the union is not supposed to discriminate between members or groups of members in it's representation, and if a member or group of members feel that it has failed that standard they can file a DFR suit.

Jim

That's what I thought. Looks like their gonna get a bunch of these either way they rule.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

USA320Pilot,

And what then, best out of 5 binding arbitrations? What happens if the West marches on Herndon because we don't agree with the next award?

I have to admit, you have been the butt of all jokes lately and I have enjoyed the laughs. I guess you can call it a warped sense of humor, but I'm sort of glad to read your posts for that reason. Keep up the good humor.

BTW...my offer still stands. I will bet you the EC does not unilaterally change or overturn the award.

Are you going to take me up on my bet? I know who and where you are so I'm not worried about settling the bet.

Cheers!

It is my understanding the EC is not required by the Constitution and By-laws or Policy Manual to forward the Nicolau Award to the company.

Thus, the EC apparently has the power to create a "defacto" permanent fence.

Finally, I understand from ALPA sources that the list of EVP's in favor of throwing out the Nicolau Award and starting over is growing and the EC may take this action.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[CactusFlyr]

Clue,

What you fail to say is that the EC may conclude the list does not comply with ALPA Merger Policy and many, not a majority, but many EVP's after discussion with Counsel believe they can throw out the Nicolau Award.

Furthermore, nobody can force the US Airways pilots to reach a JNC TA, which prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented before at least the amendable date of CBA/LOA 93. Even then the US Airways pilots could reserve the right to continue JNC negotiations for a long time or maybe enter into Section VI negotiations.

The last time Doug Parker entered Section VI negotiations it took four years to get a deal past the amendable date.

Furthermore, the EC may elect to not forward the Award to the Company, the East pilots could decertify ALPA, the East pilots could obtain a new union, the East pilots could file a lawsuit against ALPA, the East pilots could attempt to force a new union on the AWA pilots, and other options.

Furthemore, the company could implode and go boom!

Yes, there is more to the story...

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You guys go ahead. I will take your 18% raise, along with my 3%. Now there is a windfall. :down:

 

[ClueByFour]

What you fail to say is that the EC may conclude the list does not comply with ALPA Merger Policy and many, not a majority, but many EVP's after discussion with Counsel believe they can throw out the Nicolau Award.

It's going to be really tough for them to throw it out without a majority.

And, let's assume for the second that they do try it--it's a slam dunk winner DFR. It's probably so easy that:

1. The judge would immediately issue the injunction to keep the EC from touching it

2. You could then choose to continue the great working conditions of LOA 93 until around the time that HP prevails and you get the award implemented. Oh, and I'm sure the HP guys will make sure that ALPA makes 'em whole, so to speak.

You guys (you and your sources) were so incredibly wrong on what would happen with Nicolau and are equally wrong now. ALPA is not going to commit financial suicide on behalf of a pilot group who, as you are so fond of pointing out, is only going to be paying dues for another 8 years on average, at best.

Furthermore, nobody can force the US Airways pilots to reach a JNC TA, which prevents the Nicolau Award from being implemented before at least the amendable date of CBA/LOA 93. Even then the US Airways pilots could reserve the right to continue JNC negotiations for a long time or maybe enter into Section VI negotiations.

Ever occur to you that Glass and company can simply claim bad faith and toss your Transition Agreement? Especially because that transition agreement apparently has a section thus:

""The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance"."

Do you really think that Parker is going to let you and your fellow East pilots stand in the way of his synergies? History would indicate otherwise.

Furthermore, the EC may elect to not forward the Award to the Company,

See the DFR and subsequent injunction from the west. It's not CC Air this time, but a mainline carrier with the pockets to win.

the East pilots could decertify ALPA,

Which won't help a whit, since the NMB won't let you run around the award by bringing in another union. Bank it.

the East pilots could obtain a new union,

See above.

the East pilots could file a lawsuit against ALPA,

On what grounds? Liar, liar, pants on fire? Not getting one's way? "The department of defense regrets to inform you that the East MEC has died because it was stupid?"

the East pilots could attempt to force a new union on the AWA pilots,

See the part about the NMB being slightly smarter than you give them credit for.

and other options.

Right. Based on the track record of your MEC, it's highly unlikely.

Furthemore, the company could implode and go boom!

It could. How many airline HR folks and CPs do you think are going to be eager to sign up people who intentionally killed an airline because they did not get their way in front of an arbitrator they agreed to? Coming from a group who did not have the stones to shut 'er down in BK? Won't happen--too many people there just want the seat. It won't change.

Yes, there is more to the story...

You guys could learn a lot from the HP merger committee, counsel, and MEC Chairman. Well, maybe not the lawyer--it's not Katz' fault he's being paid to "represent stupid" in this case.......

The only way this ends easy for East is with head in hand and the West guys agree to fences. I suspect they will require a hefty concession for said fences, and I'd expect them to get it (since, as you regularly demonstrate, the numerical majority of the East pilots prefer a concession to losing their seat).