AMFA......read on

[AANOTOK]

A lot of people here need to read xUT's post.

It's not about anyone dragging anyone else down; it's ALL about all of us working to rise up together.

I read it, I agree...but if I have heard "coattail" once, I have heard it a fifty times in my many years at AA.

 

[Kev3188]

As've I....

Ironically, most of those people were the first to go at NW...

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Dodo rampers negotiate the mechanics CBA? At US with the IAM each CBA has their own negotiators within the class and craft of the CBA. Mechanic and Related Negotiate for Mechanic and Related, fleet negotiates for fleet. Is that too hard to grasp?

 
700UW
 
First off you know ZERO about the TWU, You're not even a airline employee any more.
Nor are you ever represented by the IAM or the TWU.
 
So lets educate you a bit, The TWU Intl. does the negotiations, the ATD Officers are the one who deal with the company and the Presidents and other representative which go to where the Nego are being held, don't actually talk or sit at the table. TWU would not let some hot headed AMT sit there and discuss $$ without having all the knowledge and info of deals the ATD officers have.
 
The ATD officers deal with HR and AA then take that which was discussed to the team they discuss certain articles, give input and give those recommendations back to the ATD officers.  Each team has people from the locals and each work group.
 
The  ATD officers that nego my contract also are the same guys who nego the ramp and stores and what ever other work groups with in the TWU. So when that happens the TWU officers have an obligation to both groups (Maintenance & Fleet) and will not give one group anything more than the other when the final $$ offer is given to the TWU. The big pot is divided and each get a piece of the Pie.
 
Just an example I get 1/2 sick time while rampers get 100% for first day out.
Stores driver gets extra just for driving the AA vehicles to chase parts.
But I don't get extra for taxi or run up of aircraft.
 
We the mechanics just want to go into the Negotiations with Just our group getting what ever can be gotten without any other group sharing in that decision making. Good or BAD.
 
If the other work groups have a different union and do better then we failed at our choices of negotiators and will have to suffer until next time and then put different members in those positions who will in our minds do a better job for us. With AMFA we can do that with the TWU/IBT/IAM that can't be done. We can replace the Top officers that is something that can't be done at the IAM, with a recall.
 
I can only assume something similar is what is at the IAM. The District lodge chairs along with other High position offers deal with company and HR and the local guys give input to the ATD of the IAM. Then they call guys like you to make copies and distribute it to the floor. You did say you did that correct? Since you also said you never took any money from the IAM. But the people who go to nego get paid meals time away from work and hotels taken care of all at the cost of the locals, so MY DUES....
 
We the mechanics feel we are not getting what we are paying for so it's time to get another union. That is what we the mechanics want. It does not and will not hurt the rest of the work groups if we switch. We are all union employees and with that must respect the other unions on the property. Pilots/Flight attendants/Ramp/Fleet what ever.

 

[700UW]

Nope, you are totally wrong on how the IAM staffs a negotiating committee.
 
But your not in the IAM and havent been over 20 years, so you cant comment, how does it feel to use your own words against you?
 
Let me explain this once again to you.
 
The negotiating committee I was on at US for the IAM in 2004 and 2005 consisted of:
 
The PDGC of 142 who was a mechanic for TW before becoming an officer.
A GLR from the International who was a former mechanic for TW before becoming a GLR.
Two Grievance Committee Chairman the one from CLT was a Lead Mechanic, the one from PHL was a line mechanic, both rank and file employees.
The President and Grievance Committee Chairman from PIT who was a Lead Mechanic and a rank and file employee.
A GC from 142 who was a GSE Mechanic at US.
A GC from 142 who was a Lead Mechanic from US.
A GC who was a Mechanic from PIT.
Me who represented Stores and Utility and a rank and file employee.
 
Funny I dont see any Fleet Service on our committee, oh wait their wasnt as they arent part of the class and craft.
 
So stick your bs about who works where or does what as one's job or classification has NOTHING to do with their education, experience, knowledge and skill levels.
 
How many times do I have to repeat this?
 
And by the way yes me a lowly utility at the time won a $15 Million Arbitration for Utility and Mechanics, and yes I presented the case at all levels including arbitration.
 
Lets see I paid for my hotel expenses and meals out of pocket, we got reimbursed for the hotel and recieved $50 a day per diem for DCA, and let me tell you three meals a day in DCA cost more than $50.
 
And the personal sacrifice made, my son was eight at the time and I was gone Monday through Friday and only home Friday Night and the weekend.
So come up with something new, cause the same BS hatred elitism you post isnt working.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Nope, you are totally wrong on how the IAM staffs a negotiating committee.
 
But your not in the IAM and havent been over 20 years, so you cant comment, how does it feel to use your own words against you?
 
Let me explain this once again to you.
 
The negotiating committee I was on at US for the IAM in 2004 and 2005 consisted of:
 
The PDGC of 142 who was a mechanic for TW before becoming an officer.
A GLR from the International who was a former mechanic for TW before becoming a GLR.
Two Grievance Committee Chairman the one from CLT was a Lead Mechanic, the one from PHL was a line mechanic, both rank and file employees.
The President and Grievance Committee Chairman from PIT who was a Lead Mechanic and a rank and file employee.
A GC from 142 who was a GSE Mechanic at US.
A GC from 142 who was a Lead Mechanic from US.
A GC who was a Mechanic from PIT.
Me who represented Stores and Utility and a rank and file employee.
 
Funny I dont see any Fleet Service on our committee, oh wait their wasnt as they arent part of the class and craft.
 
So stick your bs about who works where or does what as one's job or classification has NOTHING to do with their education, experience, knowledge and skill levels.
 
How many times do I have to repeat this?
 
And by the way yes me a lowly utility at the time won a $15 Million Arbitration for Utility and Mechanics, and yes I presented the case at all levels including arbitration.
 
Lets see I paid for my hotel expenses and meals out of pocket, we got reimbursed for the hotel and recieved $50 a day per diem for DCA, and let me tell you three meals a day in DCA cost more than $50.
 
And the personal sacrifice made, my son was eight at the time and I was gone Monday through Friday and only home Friday Night and the weekend.
So come up with something new, cause the same BS hatred elitism you post isnt working.

 
700uw I never said that I knew I said I assume can't you read to use your own expressions.
 
I said the TWU Intl. does the actual negotiations I assume that was the same at IAM.
 
I also said the Local pres or others get sent but never actually sat at table with the AA lawyers and HR and MGRS. The TWU way. Oh thats right your NOT TWU or have you ever been.
 
I again calm bs on you because if a Large Corporation let  (just a Utility person) take them for $15Mil arbitration the Company would fire the HR or MGmt team for that blunder. So did the IAM praise you or did the IAM get the cudos? Which is it?
Did the Headlines read 700UW win $15Mil or did it say IAM wins?
 
You are correct it does not have anything to do with education, experience or skill, knowledge. Its about which union we want. Airline employees. Not Fleet ramp stores Its about maintenance and the class and craft determined by the NMB.  NOT YOU ....
 
I doubt you walked anything but the papers to the arbitration hearings.
Not EX IAM supporters who are so ate up that have no fight in this at all that want to come to every section of the airline forums and put in your two cents.
 
I just hope our TWU ramp/fleet represented employees realise that the IAM with the direction of its leadership crossed a picket line. So what can they expect from Tom and the IAM leadership as they attempt to run this association dreamt up by the AFL-CIO to save dues?
 
I hope that if they (non-mechanics) get a vote they as well vote NO on the association. Force some type of vote between the TWU and the IAM. 

 

[700UW]

Well at US rank and file, local lodge officers, grievance committee reps  are all part of the NC.
 
And the NC negotiates at the IAM not the officers and the company.
 
And the IAM is in charge of the negotiations for the first two years.
 
You doubt?
 
You are a liar. You can ask any of my coworkers.
 
I did the whole foot work, investigation, evidence gathering and led and presented the case, as it had to do with Aircraft Washing being outsourced, and I part of the class and craft.
 
How ignorant are you?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Well at US rank and file, local lodge officers, grievance committee reps  are all part of the NC.
 
And the NC negotiates at the IAM not the officers and the company.
 
And the IAM is in charge of the negotiations for the first two years.
                                                         (association)   
You doubt?
 
You are a liar. You can ask any of my coworkers.
 
I did the whole foot work, investigation, evidence gathering and led and presented the case, as it had to do with Aircraft Washing being outsourced, and I part of the class and craft.
If you were utility I would agree since the NMB says they are part of the class and craft but as a stock clerk you were Not.
 
How ignorant are you?

 
700UW
 
If aircraft washers at US are called Utility at AA they would be considered  Title 1.
If they got their A&P they could come into aircraft maintenance here at AA with 100% of their seniority. Some may dislike the fact but it is what it is.
 
 
But this discussion is about AMFA and what the mechanics at AA/US will decide.
 
It's about Not letting the Association hurt our class and craft as the TWU and IAM have for many yrs.

 

[700UW]

And yes up until 2006 Stores at US were in the mechanic class and craft.

 

[chellow]

And yes up until 2006 Stores at US were in the mechanic class and craft.

Stores was never in the same Class and Craft, they where put together by the IAM, not the NMB Class Craft.

 

[700UW]

Wrong go read the 2006 decision from the NMB after the US/HP merger.
 
The IAM was certified at US in 1949, it was Mechanic, Stores and Utility.
 
No union has the authority to determine the class and craft.
 
I think I would know I was at US for 20 years as Utility and Stores.
 
When the US/HP merger occured the IBT filed to remove stores from the class and craft, which the NMB did in 2006 and gave Stores their own their own R#, before the R# was 4593, which as Mechanics, Stores and Utility, in 2006 Stores received there own R# which is now 7100.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.
 
http://www.nmb.gov/documents/representation/deter2006/33n061.pdf
 
And Stores to this day is still on their the M&R CBA at PMUS.
 
Would you care to wager on it?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Thanks Kev,

This is something that someone here should explain to me because it must be beyond my comprehension.I hear this coat tale crap wayyyyyyyyyy to much without a justification for this type of mentality.In fact, this type of mentality continues to divide us and provides fuel for the pyre.JMHO-The people that believe this are delusional and in some respects are insecure as to whom they are.Do you (meaning the individuals that adhere to this philosophy) think that by ranting to reduce the wages of others will somehow(?) put their(!) pennies in you own pocket?(FYI, the penny watchers are scooping up all of the pennies, not you).Would it not be more logical to state that if a pickle picker employee makes X then I should make = X + (X*j) for my skills? And, if the value of X is raised, would not the formula of I should make be raised as well?For those that adhere to the mantra to reduce the wages of those that you deem below your status in your misguided search for higher wages are not only belittling yourselves but your fellow workers.If we work together to raise the value of X then we work to raise the value of I should make'.

B) xUT

If this is the philosophy we have used all this time then it doesn't work for AMTs.  In the first place, I don't set my wage target at X amount of money above a Fleet Service Clerk.  I set my wage target at what other airlines are paying AMTs.  Your idea works for Fleet and Stores as their pay compares favorably to the other major airlines.  They make more than some less than others.  I guess I must remind you again that the AMTs at AA are the lowest paid in the industry.  When you consider the lack of sick pay, vacation and longevity pay that other groups in the TWU enjoy we are even further behind.  The TWU is not representing the AMTs as they should and that is the reason that we must seek another option.  Let's go further........    I take exception that the TWU insists on punishing the AMTs with inferior benefits than either FSC or Stores while we are in the same union. I also resent the fact that at some point I could be forced into a lower paid OSMA classification, something Fleet or Stores does not have to worry about.  It has become apparent that the TWU will never seek to gain wages and benefits for me that compare to other airlines.  They won't even get me the same benefits as you.  If you are basing your pay demands on what I make as an AMT while ignoring what the other airlines are paying their FSC you are not being realistic.  Do you even know what a FSC makes at Delta or United?  Do you know what a Stock Clerk makes at those airlines?  Of course you don't because the TWU has conditioned you to base your demands on my pay scale.  Do you want my benefit package too?  I bet you don't do you?  No I am not blaming you.  I blame the TWU for stealing dues from me for 29 years while selling me out at contract time.  The very least I expect is the same benefits as others in my union and I don't even get that.  I guess the easiest way to explain it is that I want to get away from the TWU.  Not you.  

 

[700UW]

Guess stores and ramp had a better and smarter negotiating committee.

 

[blue collar]

A lot of people here need to read xUT's post.

It's not about anyone dragging anyone else down; it's ALL about all of us working to rise up together.

He's spot on with that and that's what I've always thought too, no need to knock someone's pay down- bring it up, and so too will mine rise.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

On another note.  I talked to a long time AMT today who won't sign and AMFA card.  He agreed that the TWU has stolen his dues his whole career and keep him the lowest paid in the industry while giving away his benefits in the process.  He also agreed that it was not right that we have no voice in our own representation as far as the international level and agreed that having the right to vote them out as in AMFA was the better way.  He agreed that AMFA represented employees are higher paid and have much better benefits.  When I handed him a card to sign he gave it back to me and said he preferred the devil he knew to the devil he didn't.  He also said he was looking to retire soon since his wife had a good job with good medical.  After resisting the urge to beat my head against the wall, I told him that refusing to sign an AMFA card so those of us who will not be retiring soon have a say in who represents us is tantamount to taking his ball and going home.  He had no answer for that but still refused to sign a card.  If anyone out there can try to explain this mentality please do.  There are many like this guy in Tulsa and we must figure out a way to get through to them.  If we cannot we are doomed to remain the lowest paid AMTs in the entire airline industry.  We will watch the other work groups in our own union enjoy benefits that we will never see again and also watch AMTs from all other airlines secure pay and benefits that we could only dream of.  We are only as strong as our weakest link and there are quite a few of them here in Tulsa.  

 

[OldGuy@AA]

He's spot on with that and that's what I've always thought too, no need to knock someone's pay down- bring it up, and so too will mine rise.

You couldn't be more wrong.  If you are an AMT then your pay and benefits have not gone up.  Your pay went up because the TWU traded a raise for one week of vacation and other concessions such as work rules.  This is not a raise by any stretch of the imagination.  My pay and benefits have not risen and neither have yours if you are an AMT.