American/USAir-why not now?

[WorldTraveler]

You've used that "cross" routine more than a few times... yet it would appear that you are the one ready to give your life for a cause that will never produce fruit.

If you can come up with enough cards to have another election, go for it. DL has often thrown money at its employees to make sure they realize how well they have it under the current model of labor-mgmt relations.....

Yet it doesn't change that the model you have chosen doesn't work and it didn't work for NW who was only too glad to sell out to a company that has maintained good employee relations and managed to make consistent profits too.....

You haven't admitted that the model DL uses actually works and is preferred by more DL employees but there is probably "no chance" that you will either....

 

[FA Mikey]

Thank you so much. Any chance you could post on the topic or at least AA and its employees. Really there is a whole discussion board on delta. I am sorry its not as popular as you may like, but lets stick to the airline at hand. BTW its AA.

 

[wings396]

He has probably started 8 out of 10 topics over on the DL boards already. Doesn't appear that anyone over there really cares, so he has brought the show here for some attention. Negative attention and controversy make him thrive, so don't feed into it. Creating another user in order to counteract negative feedback on his primary user account paints a clear picture for most of us on here. Heck, I never even knew that we had rating points until he got into a squander over it with another member. I can't reiterate just how little something like that means to me.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yet you had no problem throwing plenty of those red buttons... you can ask Kev and FWA and E's alter ego about the scores of red buttons they pushed and then you'll understand why Spectator exists.
Apparently some people can't admit they are wrong and then have to resort to what they think was anonymous button pushing since this board doesn't believe in making those votes truly public... yet it's not that difficult to figure out.

My participation in this thread was specifically to counter the idea that TWO people posted multiple times that the legacy airline model is broken and that airline labor can't win and has nothing to give.
There would have been no reason for me to jump into the conversation if those statements weren't made - or if they had acknowledged that there are exceptions - companies that do make it work w/o fighting w/ their employees and who aren't afraid to actually pass out a pay raise.

As long as people make statements that are not supported by accurate presentation of the facts, I'll have plenty of opportunity to respond.

Hey Mikey,
did it dawn on you that AA and its labor are locked in that same labor-mgmt death spiral that is being discussed here? The relevance is perfectly obvious to anyone who wants to see.

 

[blue collar]

If you can come up with enough cards to have another election, go for it. DL has often thrown money at its employees to make sure they realize how well they have it under the current model of labor-mgmt relations.....

Yeah, they must have it pretty good if delta has to throw money at them to keep a union out.

As far as Spectator, I guess it just shows that creating a second account to increase your rating to a good one is all just part of 'the whole truth'...

 

[FWAAA]

Why not do like Lisa Simpson did and name your alter-ego "Truth Teller?"

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yeah, they must have it pretty good if delta has to throw money at them to keep a union out.

As far as Spectator, I guess it just shows that creating a second account to increase your rating to a good one is all just part of 'the whole truth'...

no, people really don't care about unions or not... they just want to get paid well. DL figured that out along time ago.... the old union-mgmt model has yet to figure it out and there are people who have invested their entire careers in a model that has failed and now they are trying to say that NO airline can work when it is obvious that not all airlines follow the failed model.

Why not do like Lisa Simpson did and name your alter-ego "Truth Teller?"

I said along time ago that I was all about making the truth known... the Whole Truth is just one of the names that have been used.

Apparently, not everyone wants to hear the truth, though... but it doesn't change whether the truth IS the truth.

Probably explains why WT has the "popularity rating" he has despite Spectator's efforts....
truth is never popular, esp. to people who face the choice of either realizing what they have believed doesn't work or changing.... in discipline after discipline in life, the evidence clearly shows that very few people decide to change.

 

[PITbull]

World traveler,

You may not care about unions or their influence...but rest assured DL mangement sure does care about unions and THEIR influence. The threat of a union coming on the property to organise the rest of their labor force is enough of a threat for DL to pay their employees higher wages and benefits and profit sharing.

If unions didn't exist anywhere in the industry, the DL employees would be on par with other employees in the industry, for sure, and no doubt in my mind.

WN, on the other hand, is 80% union and their at the top of the pay scale. Company is still thriving and doing quite well, and the employees there just enjoy working for their company. The mangement cares about their customers and shows in their business model, as they haven't followed the current trends that the other legacies have adopted and implemented to nickle and dime the customer, inspite of all their cost savings in BK.

WN have and excellent relationship and respect with each other.

The reason I'm on the AA board now is because I don't think US Airways current management deserves the employees of AA. And they surely don't deserve the cost savings that AA is getting in BK. Heck, they don't deserve their own workforce at US Airways at this point.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say I don't care about union influence... I have simply said that there is NO evidence that unions have done a better job of improving the lives of those people who are represented by them than a model which is focused instead on creating a partnership between employees and the company to the benefit of BOTH.

The traditional labor-mgmt model simply creates an environment of hostility between labor and management that keeps employees at the lowest possible wages. AA is using that model now; US has used it as have other legacies before.

Holding WN employees out as high paid because they are unionized yet saying that DL employees are well paid solely because the company wants to keep out unions cannot be logically defended.

DL employees have enjoyed financial recovery post-BK because DL has created the same cooperative relationship between labor and mgmt that helped CO grow into the leader it was in the industry during its best years AND has fueled WN's growth for its entire life.

Yet DL created that type of environment between its employees long before WN ever started or CO rocketed to prosperity in the 90s.

DL employees were paid above average relative to their peers well before deregulation - and DL employees helped the company grow far faster than its other peers.

DL continued the philosophy post BK and it is precisely why DL has been able to adapt and grow faster than its peers whose employees are largely still stuck in their BK contracts.

The issue is not union vs non-union. It is a recognition that people want to be paid well and are willing to work WITH rather than against the company if they are treated and paid well.

WN employees do it in the context of a union environment. CO employees were partially unionized at the time of its rapid growth while DL is and remains one of the least unionized airlines in the world.

The common line between DL, WN, and CO is NOT union vs non-union but companies that seek out and pursue strategic opportunities and develop partnerships with their well-paid employees compared with the typical environment that exists at US legacy airlines which is confrontation - at the expense of employee welfare and costing those employees pay.

When someone can prove to me that my theory is wrong, I'm all ears.... right now all I read here is a forum full of people who are committed to a philosophy that doesn't work and can't admit they are wrong, all the while castigating the one person who is bold enough to tell them the truth on this forum.

That message will never be well-received on this forum yet remains the obvious truth.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

DL continued the philosophy post BK

That may very well be, but they sure did mirror what the other carriers did in BK, outsourcing,pension etc..

 

[wings396]

Like I said, the button pushing is meaningless to me. As previously stated, I wasn't even aware of its existence prior to your squabbles. Even now that I'm aware of it, I could care less who clicks what how many times. Is your life really that boring that you have to focus on it?

 

[signals]

Seems to me that I fit right in. Your entire industry is bi-poiar and based on speculation! I thought that only the US forums would take a wrong turn at Albequerque, but so long thread, hello popularity contest!

The aliens really are on Maple Street and they are getting to you by flicking your lights on and off.*

It seems that merger-wolf is coming to a close. Did the wolf come or was it another trick?

Tune in again tomorrow when this thread talks about the prom!

*signals 2008 Great Duct Tape Debate!!!

 

[PITbull]

Holding WN employees out as high paid because they are unionized yet saying that DL employees are well paid solely because the company wants to keep out unions cannot be logically defended.

DL employees have enjoyed financial recovery post-BK because DL has created the same cooperative relationship between labor and mgmt that helped CO grow into the leader it was in the industry during its best years AND has fueled WN's growth for its entire life.

Yet DL created that type of environment between its employees long before WN ever started or CO rocketed to prosperity in the 90s.

DL employees were paid above average relative to their peers well before deregulation - and DL employees helped the company grow far faster than its other peers.

DL continued the philosophy post BK and it is precisely why DL has been able to adapt and grow faster than its peers whose employees are largely still stuck in their BK contracts.

The issue is not union vs non-union. It is a recognition that people want to be paid well and are willing to work WITH rather than against the company if they are treated and paid well.

WN employees do it in the context of a union environment. CO employees were partially unionized at the time of its rapid growth while DL is and remains one of the least unionized airlines in the world.

The common line between DL, WN, and CO is NOT union vs non-union but companies that seek out and pursue strategic opportunities and develop partnerships with their well-paid employees compared with the typical environment that exists at US legacy airlines which is confrontation - at the expense of employee welfare and costing those employees pay.

When someone can prove to me that my theory is wrong, I'm all ears.... right now all I read here is a forum full of people who are committed to a philosophy that doesn't work and can't admit they are wrong, all the while castigating the one person who is bold enough to tell them the truth on this forum.

That message will never be well-received on this forum yet remains the obvious truth.

What truth????

DL keeping wages above par for the reason to keep out unions can very well be defended. This is a fact! AFA had been trying to unionize the f/as for well over a decade. There has been a few votes on that property "for union" that failed. The reasons given is DL's insistence to its labor force tht they don't need a union to negotiate for better wages, as DL pays the highest wages.

My question to you is if DL is a leader in employee relations...above the rest, why, pray tell, did they need to go into Bankruptcy protection to negotiate new contracts in the first place????????? WN didn't have to and they are a legacy. They've been around for over 34 years. Why would DL have to go hrough the process and zero out the stock holders if they have this great relationships with their work force??? Why go through those risks? Just who were they trying to screw over that BK was necessary???? Bankruptcy solutions are for those companies that don't want to pay their obligations!

Why couldn't they have restructured OUTSIDE of bk protections since there is the great repour with their employees...leader among leaders in the industry. Why did they need protection??? Again, I ask, protection from whom???? I agree, the commonality is not a question of union vs. non union...its a matter of using BK v.s not, as a strategic solution to restructure. Which to me is a "cheap" low down way to conduct business. Specifically if you want to tout the "greatness" of DL above the rest.

Here's a fact and a truth...to me, they fall in the same damn heap as all the rest before them and after. The only folks that benefit in this type of equation is SENIOR MANAGEMENT; now, this is plain and simple logic to me. DL used their "trump card" and followed the rest of the same type mentality that's out there in business today. You know, the "new-harvard/Yale business graduates" to screw everyone... all in your way... to get to the top. yup, alot of "ada boys" in that brilliant way to do business.

I don't visualize DL being unique in any way, shape or form. How do they garner all this respect from you post BK?

Hell, we could all do that. Make deals that we can't afford, and then just go into bk protection to get out of them when we just don't want to work out a solution that takes some brain power and creativity.. in any environment. Just what do these CEO's get paid for anyway??? I know, the easiest way out possible.

BTW, what airline has gone into bk twice to wipeout contracts and was able to emerge, other than US Airways who I believe was the first in the industry? Now that is showing leadership above and beyond the rest.

 

[WorldTraveler]

No, my dear, WN isn't a legacy. No analyst considers WN in the same market group as AA, DL, US, and UA - or CO, NW, PA, EA etc before them.


DL did outsource parts of its maintenance in BK but DOT data shows that DL outsources less maintenance than any other carrier except for AA... and when you add back insourced revenue, DL's net outsourcing is about 15% - lower than AA's as well as any other US carrier.


DL filed for BK for the same reason other network carriers did... to restructure their debt. DL converted $4B in unsecured debt in BK into equity and restructured its aircraft leases among other significant non-employee costs. DL employees "paid" a smaller percentage of the restructuring tab than any other airline that restructured in the 2000s, primarily because DL was able to grow revenues primarily thru its in'l growth strategy.


DL obviously didn't need to file for BK to cuts its non-contract employee costs.
DL's pilots lost their pension because of the lump sum retirement feature; AA's BK might be a first if their pilots lose the lump sum feature but are able to freeze pensions like DL and NW did before them.... UA and US terminated all of their pensions, lump sum features or not. WRT to pensions, employees are faring better w/ each successive wave of BKs.


Ask AMR how successful restructuring outside of BK court has been... irrespective of the labor components. Compare the cuts AMR got out of BK court w/ aircraft leases and debt compared to UA and US which were in BK at the same time and it will become very apparent that BK provides real benefits in other aspects of the business besides labor costs. AMR achieved very little w/ respect to the debt and leasing costs outside of BK that other carriers received in BK.


CO filed for BK TWICE and then had a run of a number of years before it merged with UA - at a value far higher than US. And CO employees had higher salaries than US employees.


As much as it pains you to admit it, DL employees have recovered more salary post BK than have any other airline's employees and THAT is the reason why DL moved past its restructuring to rebuilding the company with its employees while many other network carrier employees are still stuck in their BK contracts even though DL and NW emerged AFTER those other carriers.


Just for pilot salaries, look at www.airlinepilotcentral.com and compare where DL pilots are compared to other carriers. You can look at other labor groups if you'd like but you cannot argue that DL employees have not fared better than its peers at other carriers post BK.


I don't expect you to admit that DL has a superior business plan that has allowed it to reward its employees for giving the company what it needs to grow the company - just as CO employees did after their TWO BKs. CO mgmt decided they didn't have the mass to compete in the world of megacarriers, esp. since DL merged with CO's longtime business partner, NW.
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is ample data to show that DL employees were more productive due to greater flexibility long before BK and that is why DL employees were higher paid, even in the regulated era.


I don't expect you to admit that the historic and contentious legacy carrier labor-mgmt model that has been the backbone of the airline industry doesn't deliver financial benefits for employees on the same level as other models but the evidence is overwhelmingly present for anyone who wants to see the truth.

 

[PITbull]

No, my dear, WN isn't a legacy. No analyst considers WN in the same market group as AA, DL, US, and UA - or CO, NW, PA, EA etc before them.


DL did outsource parts of its maintenance in BK but DOT data shows that DL outsources less maintenance than any other carrier except for AA... and when you add back insourced revenue, DL's net outsourcing is about 15% - lower than AA's as well as any other US carrier.


DL filed for BK for the same reason other network carriers did... to restructure their debt. DL converted $4B in unsecured debt in BK into equity and restructured its aircraft leases among other significant non-employee costs. DL employees "paid" a smaller percentage of the restructuring tab than any other airline that restructured in the 2000s, primarily because DL was able to grow revenues primarily thru its in'l growth strategy.


DL obviously didn't need to file for BK to cuts its non-contract employee costs.
DL's pilots lost their pension because of the lump sum retirement feature; AA's BK might be a first if their pilots lose the lump sum feature but are able to freeze pensions like DL and NW did before them.... UA and US terminated all of their pensions, lump sum features or not. WRT to pensions, employees are faring better w/ each successive wave of BKs.


Ask AMR how successful restructuring outside of BK court has been... irrespective of the labor components. Compare the cuts AMR got out of BK court w/ aircraft leases and debt compared to UA and US which were in BK at the same time and it will become very apparent that BK provides real benefits in other aspects of the business besides labor costs. AMR achieved very little w/ respect to the debt and leasing costs outside of BK that other carriers received in BK.


CO filed for BK TWICE and then had a run of a number of years before it merged with UA - at a value far higher than US. And CO employees had higher salaries than US employees.


As much as it pains you to admit it, DL employees have recovered more salary post BK than have any other airline's employees and THAT is the reason why DL moved past its restructuring to rebuilding the company with its employees while many other network carrier employees are still stuck in their BK contracts even though DL and NW emerged AFTER those other carriers.


Just for pilot salaries, look at www.airlinepilotcentral.com and compare where DL pilots are compared to other carriers. You can look at other labor groups if you'd like but you cannot argue that DL employees have not fared better than its peers at other carriers post BK.


I don't expect you to admit that DL has a superior business plan that has allowed it to reward its employees for giving the company what it needs to grow the company - just as CO employees did after their TWO BKs. CO mgmt decided they didn't have the mass to compete in the world of megacarriers, esp. since DL merged with CO's longtime business partner, NW.
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is ample data to show that DL employees were more productive due to greater flexibility long before BK and that is why DL employees were higher paid, even in the regulated era.


I don't expect you to admit that the historic and contentious legacy carrier labor-mgmt model that has been the backbone of the airline industry doesn't deliver financial benefits for employees on the same level as other models but the evidence is overwhelmingly present for anyone who wants to see the truth.

Your quote: Whether you want to admit it or not, there is ample data to show that DL employees were more productive due to greater flexibility long before BK and that is why DL employees were higher paid, even in the regulated era".


Dear World Traveler, how in the world can you go on and on about the benefits of BK then???? What more did DL need that they had to dance into BK? When does the BK "trump cards" end??? Or don't they???? I didn't know CO went into BK twice??? I just thought US Airways used a twice-BK strategy to screw everyone. So, CO was very familiar with the benefits of BK and decided to go in a second time??? Wow, what a success story to brag about! How can you praise this type of business strategy? One airline doing better than another post BK, my god man, this is nothing to brag about... I lived in Pittsburgh when US Aiways went into BK the second time within a time frame of 30 months, and I was embarrassed to say I worked there.

Why is this ok for DL and the rest to do? Why is this an acceptable business plan?? Who would be stupid enough to buy stock in this industry???? Folks need to stay clear away from the airline industry stock...just as Cramer has said over and over again.
Is this the new world Corporate order we can all expect?? When is a deal a deal??? That's the "true" question here.

Is there any honor in business? And there is no point for me to entertain this discussion, because its like many things today...everything is now politically correct, and if its legal, hey, doesn't matter who gets burned. Right?

IT IS NOT OK TO RUN INTO BK BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY WAY TO GET OUT OF DEAL YOU NEOGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH. Any one who dumps their financial obligations and hides under the bk protection laws, doesn't deserve any accolades. DL is 6 years out of BK, merged with NW and got their BK contract. DOT is allowing for these consolidations, and when that's done...Well, let's see how they fair in 10-20 years shall we. Time will tell a "truer" picture.
I personally believe that these fares will have to be rergulated going into the "new airline ndustry world order", because a new carrier coming into the arena can't possibly compete... as I said before many times...it would be like a lemonaide stand trying to sell lemonaide in front of the Coca Cola Corporation...been there; and done that.

NONE of these legacy carriers should be patting themselves on their backs for a job well done. All they did was wipe out their debt and start over A-GAIN. In the meantime, their are many folks and institutions that had to pick up those billions and billions of $$, and eat the tab on that debt...now didn't they???

Sure, let's entertain some truth here shall we...