Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain

[Kev3188]

Then that must be what NWA workers meant that they would have made out better if they moved, or bumped(?), to a major hub.



In my area, former NWA employees were replaced by Air Wisconsin. Maybe as a whole IAM members made out, but small areas were outsourced,and many former employees either moved or moved on.

"As a whole" being the key term. No one is claiming that all NW employees made it through BK unscathed, but to say that we would have collectively fared better with out an advocate in the courtroom is false. When comparing what the company wanted vs. what the workforce wound up with, that gap becomes even wider. More importantly, we had a say in what direction things went; non union employees had terms dictated to them with no recourse... Much like DL employees during their BK process.

Same reason I post here. I enjoy hearing alternative perspectives and an opportunity to get my mind off family and work and the segments can be entertaining at times.

And just to be clear-I think loathe is a very strong word. I'm certainly no proponent of unions but do respect others' desires for representation. If anything participating in this forum and reading other articles and materials about unions has enlightened me and opened me to your perspective. Don't necessarily agree but I respect your preferences. Would rather be non-union myself and see more businesses go that direction.

Josh

Fair enough.

 

[WorldTraveler]

"As a whole" being the key term. No one is claiming that all NW employees made it through BK unscathed, but to say that we would have collectively fared better with out an advocate in the courtroom is false. When comparing what the company wanted vs. what the workforce wound up with, that gap becomes even wider.

And again, every airline BK that has involved organized labor shows that the companies used the BK process to extract the greatest amount of cuts since it is only in BK that companies get the chance to rewrite labor contracts to their liking.
Yes, I am certain that the cuts would have been worse if NW's unions had not been able to represent their employees... but the evidence does not show that employees who were not represented going into BK fared any worse off than their unionized counterparts.
The whole reason why DL has been able to avoid unionization has been because they have treated their employees as good as or better than their peers at unionized airlines.
Sure, there are some things that the unions sought that the company agreed to, and just as in any negotiation, the ask is greater than the final result, but that is seen in the negotiating process overall, not just in labor negotiations.
.
It is accurate to say that DL employees OVERALL fared better in BK w/ respect to the size of the total compensation cuts and the number of layoffs compared to more unionized airlines.
But because DL took a unique approach to its BK restructuring, it is no more accurate to say that DL employees fared better solely because they were non-unionized. In fact, DL's business plan had a large part in why its employees fared as well as they did - greater revenue increases and more growth reduced the need for cuts.

Likewise, it is not accurate to say that NW's unions did a better job because NW employees fared better than their peers at UA and US. NW mgmt had already recognized the need to restructure and increase efficiency long before 9/11.
The same IAM that saved jobs at NW represented tens of thousands of workers at Eastern. NW mgmt was quite simply smarter and better at working with labor - and NW's unions reciprocated - than occurred at EA, where several of the same unions existed.

You can argue that NW employees had some say in determining the outcome of restructuring, just as AA employees are gaining some voice today, but non-union airlines including B6 and DL still have channels through which they seek employee feedback which does work. The fact that DL chose to increase base salaries while reducing profit sharing, something you, Kev, say you support, shows they are not unaware of what you and your peers want.

What is fair is ensuring that claims are supported by real evidence, regardless of the POV presented, and that those who collect salaries, whether it be labor unions, mgmt, or employees, demonstrate that they are doing their jobs well.

 

[Kev3188]

You can argue that NW employees had some say in determining the outcome of restructuring, just as AA employees are gaining some voice today,

I don't need to "argue" it; I lived it.

but non-union airlines including B6 and DL still have channels through which they seek employee feedback which does work.

Oh right... You mean the "engagement teams" that are purposely created to delude employees into a false sense of empowerment? The ones whose main purpose historically has been union avoidance? Those teams?

At my company they are specifically instructed that their purpose does not/will not involve anything economic (ie wages, work rules, benefits) or disciplinary.

IOW, for anything of consequence, they don't "work" at all...

No thanks.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Delete

 

[iluvaa]

This thread is about AA management getting bonuses can we steer it back on topic

 

[WorldTraveler]

The connection to AA and its mgmt pay is obvious.
AA employees have complained for years that AA mgmt has fattened their wallets while the company has floundered and AA employees have faced cuts which have not been restored.
AA now heads into BK with $5B in the bank with the intention of busting union contracts and reducing labor expense, the same component that has been center of every airline BK for about 20 years.

History shows that some airlines have imposed lesser cuts on their employees in BK, esp. if you consider a wider range of time both before and after the BK filing when companies have a chance to demonstrate how they used restructuring to rebuild their business. Some like NW started the process of restructuring before BK and largely had cooperative unions during the process - which helped cut job losses and provide choice that was important to save jobs in cities that mattered to people like Kev.

How a company has adapted to the wicked realities that are the US airline industry is of utmost importance - and BK is a process to restructure a company. Some airlines have restructured their operations better than others and not simply expected pay cuts to save the company. In fact, history shows that companies that solely cut pay and debt usually did not survive long-term. All of the existing legacy airlines all engaged in signficant changes to their strategies post BK. AA is proposing no less dramatic changes in its strategies.

There is NO doubting that unionized labor has been a large target of airline managements in BK - since BK provides the opportunity to rewrite labor contracts in ways that cannot be done outside of BK.

It is precisely the relative cooperation of NW's unions in BK relative to that with other legacy carriers that is driving many AA employees today to come back to the table and participate in negotiations because, absent participation by labor, the company holds 100% of the cards and BK judges have little reason to give anything to labor if they won't participate in a process which the courts ordered.

The IAM at NW figured that out - and they did help restructure NW's demands to the benefit of people like Kev. AA's unions are hoping for the same thing today - and there is evidence they have regained some things.

DL was not only largely non-union during its restructuring but also engaged in an aggressive growth plan that started IN BK. No other airline, including AA, has done the same thing which clearly helped reduce the number of job losses and helped to push up productivity very quickly.

The sample size of airlines who have been in BK and have emerged is too small to say with any clarity that any factor or any union solely contributed to success in avoiding greater pain to labor. For every factor or union that someone uses to argue that airline X or union X fared better, there is almost an equal number of examples where that same factor didn't yield the same results.

But it also doesn't change that the entire approach to cutting costs in BK is different when working w/ unions than it is w/ non-union employees. There is no need to gain cuts in BK if changes can be made outside of BK - both before and after.
Because AA is largely unionized like most other airlines that have filed for BK, the company will seek the maximum changes they need - at times more than what is probably necessary to restructure, solely because once they have emerged, the chances of cutting again are very slim.

The only near constant from the dozens of near BKs - both successful and not - is that top mgmt usually manages to walk away w/o suffering the pain that most rank and file employees suffer and at times has managed to benefit enormously. That is not true just in BK or the airline industry but throughout American business and is more true in the US than in other countries esp. given that C11 style BK does not exist in other countries or if it does results in a much more dramatic impact on mgmt than it does in the US.

The real question for AA is whether AA labor will emerge from the BK process w/ a better working relationship with AA mgmt (and vice versa) which many AA employees have been wanting for a long time or whether exiting BK w/ new labor contracts will start the process all over again.

What shouldn't be a surprise is that mgmt will continue to fare better than rank and file workers in nearly all phases of cuts - and barring major changes in the way corporations in the US operate, that will not likely change. And it has nothing to do with AA or BK.

 

[jimntx]

The real question for AA is whether AA labor will emerge from the BK process w/ a better working relationship with AA mgmt (and vice versa) which many AA employees have been wanting for a long time or whether exiting BK w/ new labor contracts will start the process all over again.

My guess as to the answer to that question is "not a snowball's chance in hell." I spent over 20 years in the oil industry, and there is no more cutthroat business in the U.S. than the oil business (used car dealers are angels comparatively speaking). I have never seen a group of executives who so openly display their contempt for the front line employees as at AMR corporation. And, I don't believe that a trip through bankruptcy is going to change their attitude or unpoison the well of employee attitude that they have created over the past 20 years or so.

I only started with AMR in 2000, but I saw immediately the disaffected attitude of most employees. That level of detachment from one's job is not created overnight nor does it come from being treated with dignity and respect. If you kick your dog hard enough and long enough, your dog will eventually bite you.

 

[signals]

B6 is a real non-union airline. DL not so much since the pilots are unionized. Last I heard, in the airline industry it's all about the pilots. But that is neither here nor there. CEOs and management have never really been friendly or give a damn about employees. It is all about the bottom line.

United hated Tillman, and the east hates Parker, meet your new boss same as the old one. The attitude started changing when the Japanese that American workers are lazy and have no pride in their job. Ever since we have all been forced to increase productivity and love or leave our jobs!

 

[Frank Szabo]

My guess as to the answer to that question is "not a snowball's chance in hell." I spent over 20 years in the oil industry, and there is no more cutthroat business in the U.S. than the oil business (used car dealers are angels comparatively speaking). I have never seen a group of executives who so openly display their contempt for the front line employees as at AMR corporation. And, I don't believe that a trip through bankruptcy is going to change their attitude or unpoison the well of employee attitude that they have created over the past 20 years or so.

I only started with AMR in 2000, but I saw immediately the disaffected attitude of most employees. That level of detachment from one's job is not created overnight nor does it come from being treated with dignity and respect. If you kick your dog hard enough and long enough, your dog will eventually bite you.

The old dog knows that to bite the Massa means a one way trip to the pound - never happen.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Dogs, like people, will reach a breaking point... that's why we hear stories of wives with bullets while everyone says that she was the sweetest thing you ever met.
That said, the analogy is not perfect w/ airline labor and it is true that airline unions have learned that the BK process gives the company a huge amount of control - and few companies have hesitated to take all they can get.
I would agree that the same mgmt team will not likely operate AA post BK... most BODs know that the skills that are necessary to rebuild a company are far different than the ones necessary to restructure in BK. I would hope that if AA emerges as an independent company that the creditors put in a whole new mgmt team that has no connection to the past decade or more.
I'm an optimist but I do think that w/ the right mgmt changes, AA labor and mgmt could emerge from BK with a far different future than the history they have had.

 

[jimntx]

I doubt the BOD would do something that sensible. Remember you are talking about the group of people who have rubber-stamped the bad decisions made time and time again by the current management, AND awarded them bonusses at the same time that the airline was falling into its current state.

I wish I could share you optimism, but I can't. I have seen in the downsizing in management so far some real airline talent being shown the door while others whose major talent is telling the people above them what they want to hear (rather than what they need to hear) being retained. Really talented people stand out like a sore thumb because they are so few and far between, and they make the sycophants look that much more incompetent.

After all, our management runs on the philosophy that if the facts do not fit their theories, the facts must be discarded.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I understand your frustration and don't disagree w/ your assessment of the past... but remember that the creditors have the right to seat a new board.... and it is highly unlikely the same slate will exist post-BK that existed pre-BK... and right now, the creditors, not the BOD, call the shots.

There are companies that are wired to repeat the same mistakes..... but don't forget that AA for years was one of the best run companies in the world. There are people who recognize the potential AA still has... though I sure don't know if any of those people will be a part of making the decisions about AA's post BK future.

It would be an absolute shame if all that happened during AA's BK was labor gets cut but the core AA business and values do not change.

I will continue to hope that there will be a wholesale change in the way AA operates and that it will return to its core strengths and values.