American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[AANOTOK]

I agree people can believe what they want. But what everyone has to realize is that scope and insurance are the two main issues. But scope by far is the biggest. What the company is obviously doing and saying is that they are not willing to move off their position on scope until the insurance, and a few other things are finalized.
It’s all cost out in negotiations. The company has a set dollar amount they want to achieve. If they give more than they want say in scope, then they have to stand firm on the other issues to meet their dollar amount. The war starts when both sides refuse to move off their set dollar amounts. The company has a set amount. They don’t care how we slice it up, they just don’t want us going over that amount. The key is to get the company to move off of that set amount.

I thought it's been implied that wages were basically settled and the real issues were as you stated Scope and insurance. I do not recall either you or P. REZ stating AA did not want to pay us .Am I wrong on that? And I don't recall pieces pie being the issue. So basically, you can keep your insurance but AA will take it from Scope, wages, or work rules?

 

[B737 driver]

I agree people can believe what they want. But what everyone has to realize is that scope and insurance are the two main issues. But scope by far is the biggest. What the company is obviously doing and saying is that they are not willing to move off their position on scope until the insurance, and a few other things are finalized.
It’s all cost out in negotiations. The company has a set dollar amount they want to achieve. If they give more than they want say in scope, then they have to stand firm on the other issues to meet their dollar amount. The war starts when both sides refuse to move off their set dollar amounts. The company has a set amount. They don’t care how we slice it up, they just don’t want us going over that amount. The key is to get the company to move off of that set amount.

Yes you are correct. Some people at SWA refuse to understand Scope is your job. And want more money than our current T/A, and all their scope rules. And fully expect the company to cough it up, with no scope change whatsoever. Unfortunately these people refuse to deal in reality.

 

[AANOTOK]

What it sounds like to me you are saying CB, is AA came in with a set budget they were going to allow and the Association wants that budget increased. It is not something specific like insurance or "when and where" but bottom line the the cost lining up with number they are wanting to spend.

 

[charlie Brown]

What it sounds like to me you are saying CB, is AA came in with a set budget they were going to allow and the Association wants that budget increased. It is not something specific like insurance or "when and where" but bottom line the the cost lining up with number they are wanting to spend.

The company always comes in with a set budget. The big question is how much the union can get them to move off of that budget. Again, everything is cost out to the dollar to go against that budget. Negotiations are done because the company’s budget and unions budget are always miles apart.
Ex: A sixth week vacation at the 30th year is worth a set dollar amount this year, but this amount increases every year because more are reaching the 30th year. This all goes against the companies set budget. Now the company wouldn’t care if you took that money for vacation and put it toward wages as long as you didn’t go over what the vacation cost each year. Again, it’s the bottom dollar to them. They could care less where it’s spent, the key is to get them to move off their set amount.
Problem in these negotiations is they want a contract to where that set amount goes down each year, or at worst stays neutral to them for the life of the contract.
Sure Parker will brag about how it’s worth more than anyone else in the industry. Well that’s because we have thousand of more employees. So of course it’s more. Doesn’t mean it’s worth more if you break it down per employee.

 

[Racer X]

I thought it's been implied that wages were basically settled and the real issues were as you stated Scope and insurance. I do not recall either you or P. REZ stating AA did not want to pay us .Am I wrong on that? And I don't recall pieces pie being the issue. So basically, you can keep your insurance but AA will take it from Scope, wages, or work rules?

Do you recall a few Months back when AA said they would keep us at TOS at DOS plus raises throughout agreement? Those raises didn’t necessarily KEEP us at TOS throughout the agreement. The Assoc wants TOS now, at DOS,
AND throughout agreement. The Company is not agreeing.
AS AN EXAMPLE: company offers $33.00 at DOS with 2.0% each year.
Assoc says $33.00 at DOS with EITHER 2.0% each year
Or 1.0% above highest competitor WHICHEVER IS GREATER.
AA $33.00. DOS
SAY UA GOES TO $34.00.
The 2.0% raise only gets us to $33.66
1% over UA would be $34.34.

 

[pjirish317]

US is 50% of billable hours of heavy maintenance, no line can be outsourced though. AA is 35% of the Maintenance budget.

And yes IAM has the superior Medical. So why aren’t we all supporting adding that on to TWU Members rather than trying to pressure the IAM to dump it for OUR expediency?

Weez,

This is by far, the best statement so far. Thank you.

 

[aintgotnotimefodat]

Weez,

This is by far, the best statement so far. Thank you.

Weez is right, the IAM negotiates better contracts than the TWU, always has...hence the auto pay raise each year, during negotiations, their medical costs and scope language.. billable hours can be tracked vs. TWU spend, which leaves it virtually impossible to track....more the reason AMP baby!!!

 

[CremaDiLimone]

The company always comes in with a set budget. The big question is how much the union can get them to move off of that budget. Again, everything is cost out to the dollar to go against that budget. Negotiations are done because the company’s budget and unions budget are always miles apart.
Ex: A sixth week vacation at the 30th year is worth a set dollar amount this year, but this amount increases every year because more are reaching the 30th year. This all goes against the companies set budget. Now the company wouldn’t care if you took that money for vacation and put it toward wages as long as you didn’t go over what the vacation cost each year. Again, it’s the bottom dollar to them. They could care less where it’s spent, the key is to get them to move off their set amount.
Problem in these negotiations is they want a contract to where that set amount goes down each year, or at worst stays neutral to them for the life of the contract.
Sure Parker will brag about how it’s worth more than anyone else in the industry. Well that’s because we have thousand of more employees. So of course it’s more. Doesn’t mean it’s worth more if you break it down per employee.

i believe we all agree on that. cutting different size slices of a pie that never expands has been discussed..including theorizing the lus/insurance in exchange for a bigger pie (an additional cookie or two for lus).

the issue here is how to get aa to expand the pie:

- increased profits? parker has bragged about aa's finances going forward. they aren't obliged to expand our pie due to aa's self-perceived brighter financial future...and i don't believe they are generous enough to do so.

- labor strife? well, the idea alone can be considered a job action in today's world. here, i don't see us nowhere near organized enough at the lowest level(s) and a key conduit, crew chiefs; many are 'heroes' and a few others don't wish to jeopardize their jobs/benefits of handshake agreements (overtime) with management by 'going by the book'.

the AMTs are key. the AMTs scare the company by their ability of delaying flights/putting planes out of service. it's my belief and others, that the AMTs were the tipping point for our august 2016 raises.

in that sense, fleet does ride their coat tails and the assoc. needs the AMTs more than the AMTs need us.

so, be nice and make nice with aircraft maintenance.

 

[WeAAsles]

Weez,

This is by far, the best statement so far. Thank you.

Again the “rumor” is that our Value Medical plans which is the non contractual top tier LAA plans will be going up by 11%. That means the Family Plan will be going up by over $60 per month for a total of over $700.00 per month before any Deductibles.

It’s possible the Company is trying to slowly cost us out of those better plans and into more substandard plans?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

“Emphasizing the substantially different pay structures between the mainline and regional carriers, Mr. Glass recalled how in August 2016 he assisted in American’s joint bargaining with the IAM and TWU representing 35,000 mechanic and related, fleet service, maintenance technicians, stock clerks and others. That settlement, according to Glass, was “astonishingly huge,” and, unfortunately, was announced simultaneously with Envoy’s TWU tentative agreement containing modest pay increases. According to Glass, American’s President and others stated their preference for placing all regional flying with the three wholly owned carriers, “but it’s all predicated on costs.”

“Envoy has a very bright future if it can keep its costs in line.”

that's fairly rich from mr. glass.

if there were no unions to negotiate against...mr. glass would have no work. if union members didn't have an astonishingly huge piece of candy to take away during contract talks...would mr. glass be a door greeter at wal-mart?

like sean hannity. hates unions. unions destroy the usa. union members are economic terrorists.

and this a$$hole uses an agent to negotiate tens of millions for himself.

union - negotiates for the collective.
agent - negotiates for one client.

hypocrite.

 

[swamt]

Yep, it's now out. No good news.

Brothers and Sisters,

"The Association Executive leadership met with American Airlines management this week to push through the tough Fleet Service Scope issues and proposals we have exchanged. Your committee was initially pleased when the Company’s Chief Negotiator offered to include protection for all of the fleet work currently performed at the 40 fleet service stations".

"When the Association committee began to engage the offer, the Company negotiators abruptly reversed course, denied the offer they made and insisted that health care and wages be agreed to before they would agree to any further scope discussions".


http://www.usaamerger.com/

Maybe I was wrong....Maybe we are not being held hostage by the IAM minority and their medical after all.....Maybe we are being held hostage by fleet's scope!

Actually it still appears that AA is playing the exact same play book SWA was playing. Pull everything previously agreed to in previous nego's as a way to futher delay, delay, delay. More stall tactics by the company side if you ask me.
M&M, it does look like the scope for fleet will be the hold up, but it also appears that the company is trying to use the scope as a tool of leverage. In other words they wanted the NC to see they are willing to give up on scope as long as NC is willing to accept bennies and pay offer being discussed. Sort of what our company did with fighting for scope then very quickly removing all asks with scope off the table and leave at current book. A delay tactic as well as a leverage move tactic by the company. It seems you guys are about where we were at year 3-4. Your company is using items to stall longer, the question now is why?

 

[WeAAsles]

that's fairly rich from mr. glass.

if there were no unions to negotiate against...mr. glass would have no work. if union members didn't have an astonishingly huge piece of candy to take away during contract talks...would mr. glass be a door greeter at wal-mart?

like sean hannity. hates unions. unions destroy the usa. union members are economic terrorists.

and this a$$hole uses an agent to negotiate tens of millions for himself.

union - negotiates for the collective.
agent - negotiates for one client.

hypocrite.

Mr Glass and the Law Firm he works for, Ford and Harrison are also not in any short supply of work to do for the Parker management team.

Directly following the conclusion of talks for our groups they’ll move on to others who’s Contracts become amendable. Pretty much guaranteeing an endless run of yearly Negotiations at AA.

Mentioning wages in that last update tells me that we’re probably getting very close to our conclusion? Wages are always the absolute last item discussed.

And I can understand the Company wanting to lock in Wages and Medical before they agree firmly on the SCOPE. The telegraph in that last update being the Company is willing to let us keep all the work we perform TODAY but doesn’t want to add anything anywhere.

These “Official” updates are becoming a little too dramatic for my tastes now but I do realize there need especially if something may wind up unfortunately being sacrificed?

 

[swamt]

I agree people can believe what they want. But what everyone has to realize is that scope and insurance are the two main issues. But scope by far is the biggest. What the company is obviously doing and saying is that they are not willing to move off their position on scope until the insurance, and a few other things are finalized.
It’s all cost out in negotiations. The company has a set dollar amount they want to achieve. If they give more than they want say in scope, then they have to stand firm on the other issues to meet their dollar amount. The war starts when both sides refuse to move off their set dollar amounts. The company has a set amount. They don’t care how we slice it up, they just don’t want us going over that amount. The key is to get the company to move off of that set amount.

So they are holding out scope as leverage to get other items agreed to. Kinda what I thought. Thx.

The company always comes in with a set budget. The big question is how much the union can get them to move off of that budget. Again, everything is cost out to the dollar to go against that budget. Negotiations are done because the company’s budget and unions budget are always miles apart.
Ex: A sixth week vacation at the 30th year is worth a set dollar amount this year, but this amount increases every year because more are reaching the 30th year. This all goes against the companies set budget. Now the company wouldn’t care if you took that money for vacation and put it toward wages as long as you didn’t go over what the vacation cost each year. Again, it’s the bottom dollar to them. They could care less where it’s spent, the key is to get them to move off their set amount.
Problem in these negotiations is they want a contract to where that set amount goes down each year, or at worst stays neutral to them for the life of the contract.
Sure Parker will brag about how it’s worth more than anyone else in the industry. Well that’s because we have thousand of more employees. So of course it’s more. Doesn’t mean it’s worth more if you break it down per employee.

CB, wouldn't it also be in the considerations that when companies do stall for so many years, and other airlines move up the pay scale with newly nego contracts that the budget does have to be a fluid budget? I would think so, as is what is happening now within the industry with 3 airlines now.
You know ours has been going 6 years and may be going longer if this is voted down. I think you guys are somewhere in the 3-4 years? And still going. UPS has an AIP (as far as their mechanics are concerned). I know your company does not use us or UPS but they should, it's all the same industry rather they want to admit it or not.
Good luck with your nego's and I hope you guys don't have to go the sec 6 route...

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Mr Glass and the Law Firm he works for, Ford and Harrison are also not in any short supply of work to do for the Parker management team.

Directly following the conclusion of talks for our groups they’ll move on to others who’s Contracts become amendable. Pretty much guaranteeing an endless run of yearly Negotiations at AA.

Mentioning wages in that last update tells me that we’re probably getting very close to our conclusion? Wages are always the absolute last item discussed.

And I can understand the Company wanting to lock in Wages and Medical before they agree firmly on the SCOPE. The telegraph in that last update being the Company is willing to let us keep all the work we perform TODAY but doesn’t want to add anything anywhere.

These “Official” updates are becoming a little too dramatic for my tastes now but I do realize there need especially if something may wind up unfortunately being sacrificed?

correct, but if the dream of the 1%ers and corporate america became 100% reality, what work would he have to do? the dream of no unions, unions becoming outlawed.

would the fees he gets from aa be considered, 'astonishingly huge'? he needs unions to get his fees.

as far as the rest, you know the flowchart better than me.

again, the 'pie' we talk about, the size of the pie hasn't been mentioned. is it in the $550 million a year range?

what is the size of the current pie? never been mentioned, and i know the union knows.

 

[WeAAsles]

correct, but if the dream of the 1%ers and corporate america became 100% reality, what work would he have to do? the dream of no unions, unions becoming outlawed.

would the fees he gets from aa be considered, 'astonishingly huge'? he needs unions to get his fees.

as far as the rest, you know the flowchart better than me.

again, the 'pie' we talk about, the size of the pie hasn't been mentioned. is it in the $550 million a year range?

what is the size of the current pie? never been mentioned, and i know the union knows.

Well that’s the problem right there. First I don’t think the Union could publicly discuss that number even if they wanted to as that could affect the Stock?

Second let’s go with your 550 Million. How much of that is a one time (Buyout) cost? Maybe 200 Million? So that brings the total down there first.

Next if the Company has the ability to replace us in performed work over time do their costs remain static or start to go down over time as CB wrote yesterday?

And I don’t see Unions ever being outlawed in the US but the Capitalists are always going to be fighting to make their influence as weak as possible. With of course the help of those who they represent sadly. (The opinion fools)