American Airbuses to Hawaii ?

[FWAAA]

Probably comes from the same crowd who complained when the transcon 767's were replaced by the A321t's...Narrow body and less seats.

You're probably right.

In this case, however, there are already lots of narrowbody flights to Hawai'i, so flying A321s is really a substitution of a newer plane for an older plane but both are roughly the same size and capacity. The range of the A321 is the only real issue.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

 
You don't know what you're talking about.  All the majors have 180 minute etops now so flights  from the northest US (BOS/NYC/PHL) to LHR can use an alternate in Newfoundland, for example, and another in Ireland.  That's it. 
 
When weather permits, which it almost always does, the standard enroute alternates on BOS/NYC/PHL to Euroope flights are in Iceland and/or the Azores.  Greenland is almost never a factor unless ther is an operational etops restriction.

 
OK, some extra points for your clarity on THAT part of the ISSUE.
My  GD point is the 180 min. etops.
If airline XYZ has to shut down an engine on thier two holer 2:55 mins. out from the LAX coast line, ....WHO among you wants to be on record saying the 2nd engine..............W I L L ...........N     O     T................MALFUNCTION before the Hawaii coast ?
 
And if it happens,  Where are you gonna'  'put er' down  if it happens   ????????
 
 
Flying over the Atlantic from the US east coast, is Totally UNLIKE flying over the Pacific from (say) LAX to HNL, period ! !
 
(Hey, maybe you catch a break because the USS Ronald Reagan just happens to be in the area)  !!!!!!!!

 

[700UW]

Please post actual cases of an ETOPS flight had both engines shutdown due to a mechanical failure.

 

[WorldTraveler]

who says it has to be mechanical failure?

in fact, the times that have involve multiple engine failure regardless of the number of engines have involved non-mechanical failure but the engines still quit working.

volcanic debris, fuel starvation all can bring down a plane regardless of the reason.

I'm not arguing against the safety of ETOPS and I have been on an ETOPS flight with an in-flight engine shut down.

Twins - whether widebodies or narrowbodies - have been flying from the mainland to Hawaii - one of the most heavily traveled and largest sections of ocean in which there are no en route alternates for years. Safely.

as FWAAA notes, range and payload at mainland -Hawaii flight lengths which can be affected by winter winds - is the only issue.

I'd still like to see evidence of how long 321-200s have remained in the air with full passenger loads and normal Hawaii bags.

and even if payload restrictions are necessary for a handful of days per year, the economics still likely favor using a more efficient aircraft which can operate without payload restrictions for 320 or more days per year than to carry a lot of extra weight for the same amount of time to prevent that possibility.

 

[wcs]

Please post actual cases of an ETOPS flight had both engines shutdown due to a mechanical failure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/10/world/jet-pilot-who-saved-304-finds-heroism-tainted.html

 

[700UW]

Pilot Error switching fuel from the good engine to the bad, that is not a mechanical failure to cause the second engine to shut down.
 
And being out of fuel isnt a mechanical failure.

 

[1AA]

Pilot Error switching fuel from the good engine to the bad, that is not a mechanical failure to cause the second engine to shut down.
 
And being out of fuel isnt a mechanical failure.

It is if you developed a fuel leak due to mechanical failure. We had such a situation back in 1989 with our A300.

 

[700UW]

Did you not read the pilot shut the fuel off to the RUNNING engine by MISTAKE?
 
I specifically asked to provide a link to an actual factual case where both engines on an ETOPS flight had a mechanical failure, not from pilot error.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Pilot Error switching fuel from the good engine to the bad, that is not a mechanical failure to cause the second engine to shut down.
 
And being out of fuel isnt a mechanical failure.

 
But in this case, I think the underlying problem was that a few days before the incident an engine on the plane was swapped.  Included in the engine swap was a hydraulic pump from a different engine model  - which the mechanics balked at installing but the TS maintenance supervisor ordered them to do it anyways. The ultimate result was the landing in the Azores.  (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on the details).

 

[1AA]

Did you not read the pilot shut the fuel off to the RUNNING engine by MISTAKE?
 
I specifically asked to provide a link to an actual factual case where both engines on an ETOPS flight had a mechanical failure, not from pilot error.

You said running out of fuel is not a mechanical failure. The engine driven fuel pump was compromised and they were losing fuel. They where about to ditch in the water but made it to Bermuda just in time. I read the reports and remember the incident when it happened so don't start digging for links and details. Bottom line is you have a twin engine aircraft that is etops certified flying over water about to ditch in the Atlantic Ocean because of a mechanical fuel leak.

 

[700UW]

The pilot so shut the fuel off to the running engine by mistake, how is that a mechanical failure?

 

[1AA]

The pilot so shut the fuel off to the running engine by mistake, how is that a mechanical failure?

He shut the engine down and still losing fuel. It was not by mistake. He was following the checklist at the time. You must be thinking of another incident. The End.

 

[MetalMover]

If memory serves me correctly the pilot did folllow the checklist i believe an Eastern Airlines A300 pilot had been listening on the radio and told the AA A300 to pull the firel handle which was not on their checklist. The fuel loss stopped there. I'm pretty sure this is what happened. But i wasn't there and only heard about it upon return to work.

 

[Overspeed]

Air Transat incident was a MX procedure issue which resulted in a failure of a fuel line. The pilots ended up following the QRH procedure which caused other problems. Thankfully they were able to glide to safety.
 
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/images/airtransat/revelations.html

 

[1AA]

If memory serves me correctly the pilot did folllow the checklist i believe an Eastern Airlines A300 pilot had been listening on the radio and told the AA A300 to pull the firel handle which was not on their checklist. The fuel loss stopped there. I'm pretty sure this is what happened. But i wasn't there and only heard about it upon return to work.

Yes your 100% correct. Rumor had it after Eastern shut their doors AA hired that pilot.