ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week 5/22 to 5/29

[767jetz]

The gentleman in question that was replaced by alpa was representing his own personal interests (IE: his gludius maximus) and did not have the courage to give a dissenting opinion to those around him.

As usual, anyone who doesn't agree with you or support your view of the world is attacked and labeled an "ALPA shill."

I'm sure you are far more qualified to speak intelligently about Chris Beebe, his ethics, work, and contributions than the people who actually knew him and worked with him on a daily basis. (sarcasm intended)

 

[exB717Flyer]

If you really feel that way, you are a rare westie. Most seem to think they are entitled to it all, and now.

I don't think I'm so rare. You just selectively apply the word to further your agenda. If by "it all, and now" you mean the decision reached after the neutral arbitrator carefully listened to both sides for weeks then yes, we do feel entitled to that. If you think you can get a redo of the seniority list by virtue of numerical majority then no, you're not entitled to that.

I feel lucky to have what I have, just don't want someone that was never in line for it, given it.

We weren't given anything; you'd already lost it in bankruptcy court.

Nobody touched this question before so I'll re-ask. At the time the merger was announced the junior FO at AAA was a 1986 DOH. So if he was the junior man how could he be so "senior" in your mind? Follow up question: if he was junior on the AAA list and a DOH integration makes him senior on the combined list how is that fair?

Nicolau didn't pull his decision out of his tuchus. His words imply no vengeance towards the East nor any affinity towards the West. While longevity is earned seniority truly isn't. It's the simple result of attrition ahead and newhires behind you. Seniority is also company-dependent. Your seniority at AAA means nothing at AWA and vice-versa. Nicolau viewed merging us as the creation of a new company which technically it IS. In 2005 your Collelo was the bottom guy flying at USAirways. O'dell was ours. Nicolau left them both at the bottom, hence, they both stayed junior. You lost nothing and we gained nothing.

 

[nostradamus]

As usual, anyone who doesn't agree with you or support your view of the world is attacked and labeled an "ALPA shill."

I'm sure you are far more qualified to speak intelligently about Chris Beebe, his ethics, work, and contributions than the people who actually knew him and worked with him on a daily basis. (sarcasm intended)

I knew him and worked with him. Did you?

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I don't think I'm so rare. You just selectively apply the word to further your agenda. If by "it all, and now" you mean the decision reached after the neutral arbitrator carefully listened to both sides for weeks then yes, we do feel entitled to that. If you think you can get a redo of the seniority list by virtue of numerical majority then no, you're not entitled to that.We weren't given anything; you'd already lost it in bankruptcy court.

Nobody touched this question before so I'll re-ask. At the time the merger was announced the junior FO at AAA was a 1986 DOH. So if he was the junior man how could he be so "senior" in your mind? Follow up question: if he was junior on the AAA list and a DOH integration makes him senior on the combined list how is that fair?

Nicolau didn't pull his decision out of his tuchus. His words imply no vengeance towards the East nor any affinity towards the West. While longevity is earned seniority truly isn't. It's the simple result of attrition ahead and newhires behind you. Seniority is also company-dependent. Your seniority at AAA means nothing at AWA and vice-versa. Nicolau viewed merging us as the creation of a new company which technically it IS. In 2005 your Collelo was the bottom guy flying at USAirways. O'dell was ours. Nicolau left them both at the bottom, hence, they both stayed junior. You lost nothing and we gained nothing.

If you are going to merge lists on a snapshot, the only way to have made St. Nicalou fair was 30 year fence. Attrition due to mandatory retirement is the only quantifiable value that can be made in a merger argument. Everything else is opinion and speculation, so you honor the entitlement union tenet of he/she who has been around longer goes first. Unless you don't want entitlements and then the company gets to determine CO/FO, BASE/ACFT Assignments, etc.

 

[sharktooth]

As usual, anyone who doesn't agree with you or support your view of the world is attacked and labeled an "ALPA shill."

You really need to look up the definition of "shill" and see how that applies, "an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler..." In the case of anyone pleading the case for ALPA, the organization, I feel the term is most appropriate, for the organization.

 

[sharktooth]

Nobody touched this question before so I'll re-ask. At the time the merger was announced the junior FO at AAA was a 1986 DOH.

Uh. Figured out why nobody "touched your question"?

The premise you posted was wrong, by quite a bit.

 

[767jetz]

I knew him and worked with him. Did you?

Yes, but in different capacities I'm sure.

 

[nostradamus]

Yes, but in different capacities I'm sure.

Your answer requires a little more elaboration. The gentleman in question was once our mec leader. I flew with him and heard him speak personally many times. You work for united airlines. Your input is allowed, but you should gather your facts before you make a statement regarding the validity of my statements, otherwise you are not talking out of your mouth, you are using your subwoofer.

 

[cleardirect]

For all of you USAPA supporters could you please clear something up for me. You are on here and your own web site begging, crying, demanding, threatening the west pilots to join your organization (it’s not a union) Why? Other than the dues money, that you will use to destroy our careers what do you need us for?

All of you have mentioned it many times the east has the majority. You can outvote us at any time. Demonstrated by the representational vote. We have no reason to believe that it would go any other way.

You have set up the C&BL to favor the east pilots. At the most the west could get 5 reps. The east could have 12. Outvoted each time. You set it up to have 70% of the reps even though you only have 60% of the pilots.

You have told us that you don’t need us for anything. But we had better join in order to have a say in our future. What say will we have? Outvoted every time. Remember the east is so proud of having the majority.

It has also been threatened many times that if we do not join that USAPA will have all of the non-members fired. Do you 100% participation on the east side? Has every one of your pilots signed up? If not why not. Are you also going to be as aggressive in going after your own? Even if you get 80% participation from the east. That leaves over 500 non-member s on the east and 1800 from the west. What do you think that Doug will do if one of the first items of business for USAPA is to go to him and ask to fire over 2300 pilots on the same day?

Don’t forget that USAPA can not selectively pick and choose who they go after. It is all or nothing. Only go after the west. Discrimination lawsuit. Seek to punish the west first. Discrimination.

So explain to me and the rest of the west. Other than the dues money why are you guys so hell bent on getting the west to sign up?

 

[checksix]

One of the few decent things about the APA contract: we can defer recall for three years past the time the junior guy gets offered recall. Plus, there's no furlough time limit."At the end"? I was hired in '99 and had 400 (out of 2300) below me.I don't know of any airline that allows that.

What did you think about APA? From the outside, the association always seemed to do a pretty good job representing the American pilots. I'd be interested on your take of an independent union.

 

[767jetz]

Your answer requires a little more elaboration. The gentleman in question was once our mec leader. I flew with him and heard him speak personally many times. You work for united airlines. Your input is allowed, but you should gather your facts before you make a statement regarding the validity of my statements, otherwise you are not talking out of your mouth, you are using your subwoofer.

How long ago was he your MEC Chairman? You called him a shill because he did not stand up recently during his tenure at ALPA National and support your views after the binding arbitration decision. So you formed your "shill" opinion of him years ago when he was your MEC Chairman, just to use it now when he didn't agree with you? Oh, I get it. Yeah, that makes sense. BTW, apparently the majority the East pilots who voted him in as MEC chairman way back then, didn't think he was a shill as you did, or he wouldn't have been elected.

 

[exB717Flyer]

What did you think about APA?

No better or worse than ALPA. The same crap goes on there too and they have less clout on Capitol Hill. I see no advantage to independent unions. The most important thing a pilot group can have is effective leadership and that's severely lacking irrespective of which union is in power.

 

[Junebug172]

EastUS: "I can't personally imagine myself EVER having the unmitigated gall to look into another's pilot's face, with far more years of flying..and tell him that I "should be the captain"....of course; I don't have your perverse sense of having any "higher ground"=lottery ticket, upon which to "justify" any such obvious BS...and I personally couldn't even then. Your actual mileage seems to vary therein.....within all that "higher ground"

"INTEGRITY MATTERS" How would you presume to know?

PS: The Bottom Line is that we'd all be far better served if we could find some way to work together. Whatever any might glean from my voluminous postings..I'm FAR from the most "rabid-evil-easthole"..and I've had it with the west's, self-ascribed, "INTEGRITY"-laden, childish antics and pure BS...PERIOD.

Your seniority can working for US Airways and, I agree, it did matter there. I built my seniority working at America West. So, it can be said, we each invested time in our respective airlines which had to be taken into consideration when we merged. I got credit for mine as you got credit for yours.

The logic is perfect and Nic agreed. I find it funny how you guys seemed to have forgotten about DOH when the Empire guys came around.

And has for integrity, we have a better idea about it than you guys do. We tend to abide by the agreements we sign. Do you?

Didn't think so.

 

[EctopicBeat]

For all of you USAPA supporters could you please clear something up for me. You are on here and your own web site begging, crying, demanding, threatening the west pilots to join your organization (it’s not a union) Why? Other than the dues money, that you will use to destroy our careers what do you need us for?

I may have missed something, but I don't see any begging, crying, etc. I have seen a great deal of effort aimed toward fair inclusion, apparently futile.

...You can outvote us at any time. Demonstrated by the representational vote. We have no reason to believe that it would go any other way.

The you/us characterization is a faulty premise. If you mean that your only reason to join the BPR is to overturn the C&BL's merger language, then you likely will be outvoted every time. If, on the other hand, you are there to represent the pilots in your base on the myriad of other issues that are of importance to line pilots, then you might find that a little diplomacy and a reasonable argument might just win over a sufficient number of other base reps and the issue may resolve in your favor. You might also find issues where the East reps are split and PHX/LAS will have the deciding vote. Won't ever know without trying, however.

It has also been threatened many times that if we do not join that USAPA will have all of the non-members fired. Do you 100% participation on the east side? Has every one of your pilots signed up? If not why not. Are you also going to be as aggressive in going after your own? Even if you get 80% participation from the east. That leaves over 500 non-member s on the east and 1800 from the west. What do you think that Doug will do if one of the first items of business for USAPA is to go to him and ask to fire over 2300 pilots on the same day?

Everyone (former East and West) will eventually pay union dues or agency shop fees, or they will not be employed here. How and when the USAPA leadership chooses to enforce this is up to them, but it will happen. I have long felt my ALPA dues were being wasted and used in ways not in my best interest, but I paid them anyway. Like taxes, they are not optional.

Don’t forget that USAPA can not selectively pick and choose who they go after. It is all or nothing. Only go after the west. Discrimination lawsuit. Seek to punish the west first. Discrimination.

The lawyers must love you guys. About every 5 minutes y'all come up with another sure-fire legal strategy that will end the wicked East tyranny. To date, I have not have not seen one that has any actual merit, but keep trying if you must.

I don't see USAPA as a panacea or a cure for the current economic climate, but it will be a substantial improvement over it's predecessor. Once you accept that there will be no St. Nic and no free ride, then maybe we can begin working together. Non-involvement by the West is of course your option, but a foolish one IMO.

 

[hp_fa]

Wow, a lot of 1st post posters who are jumping right into it as if they are experienced posters here......