ALPA/USAPA/Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/12-4/19

[EastUS]

1- Those on the fence who have not voted yet will see the wave of mergers as a bad time to ditch ALPA, regardless of how much they hate ALPA. Their thinking will be... what good will USAPA do for me if, within 6 months, we are merged with a much larger airline and end up as APA or ALPA again anyway. If we are perceived as a group who says "we are the majority and can force whatever we want on others," how will we be treated when the tables are turned and we are by far the minority again.

Be very, very carefull what you wish for. In case it's escaped you entirely; Alpo did absolutely NOTHING usefull for the East pilots, who were/are the majority within the Awa-US debacle. Where/How that should afford you some fantasized benefit from having any majority within any Alpoid manufactured/"processed" fiasco is a complete mystery..and ANY bargaining agency can always go for arbitration as a last resort....Fetch those Alpoid cards and dice at your pleasure good sir..especially since that's all that Alpo actually has to offer.

Good luck in any future merger-ville over there at UAL....

 

[EastUS]

Obvioiusly, friend, you have no clue what fun that is about to begin- you guys in the east have taught 1,800 of us in the west that rules don't matter, ethics and morals- who cares about that--

Puhleeaze..you're killin' me..."ethics and morals"!!??? Ladies and Gentlemen:..Now playing in the center ring...fanfare and drumroll.......The AWA "Righteous Position" as voiced by Leonidas, General of the ARMY of Sticker Posters himself = "I want the Captan seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"

" Unfortunately the east chose not to play nice in the sandbox. So if you think you can subvert one third of the I am not surprised you cannot figure out what awaits you after the 17th."

Hey!!?? How did "marching together as a unified group" vanish so suddenly!!?? Just stop it Prechilled...you're killin' us all on these boards.

Where's that good old Alpoid "United Alpa Pilots" /"Fellow Pilots" BS again?...I naturally only refer to those "beautifull youths" out west..and certainly not to any "Slope-shouldered..scraggly grey hair/etc" sad unfortunates in the east

"Unfortunately the east chose not to play nice in the sandbox." Hey!!...No fair!!...Many east pilots, likewise then activated reserves, "played in the Sandbox...and we then had actual orders to "not play nice". It's a certainty that none here have seen anything so ferocious as your "ARMY" out there, much less the threatened "All-Out Warfare"...but..we'll just have to try and measure up.

"I am not surprised you cannot figure out what awaits you after the 17th"

That's strange.(scratches scraggly grey haired head)...according to you...USAPA will be lucky to get even half the east pilots' votes...No matter:

In what I'll hope's appropriate AWA-youth-speak: Bring it On...Your threats and tantrums are meaningless....Do whatever you think best...and do such in the name of "Fraternity", and "Fellow Pilots" everywhere of course. Got anymore fabulous, and insightfull assertions about "ethics" to offer?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Never left. What about yours?

Always love to jump in when people put out absolutely wrong "common wisdom". McDonald's hot coffee. Note toward the bottom where "the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful".

People that pass things like the "Stella Awards" and other junk without doing any kind of checking are just maliciously negligent. After the Swift Boat lies, lies about Bush and Gore, "lazy" does not cut it anymore with me.

I do feel bad about calling Ms. Liebek a broad. Tactless on my part. It is true that I hadn't read anything about the case.

That being said, it was simply a smart aleck remark. I meant that just because Woody won a judgement doesn't mean I want him to represent me. That still stands.

 

[sharktooth]

So if you think you can subvert one third of the pilot group and actually believe harmony will prevail after the 17th you are pretty naive, my friend.

Compare, subvert 2/3 pilot group vs conforming with industry standard (1/3 pilot group loses "winning" lottery ticket).

Do you upset 2/3 of the pilots or 1/3, especially when the 1/3 "owns" all the low yield flying?

BTW, thank your buddies for lowering pay expectations on your useless (except to management) 330 agreement, less than $160 per hour! Many narrow body Captains make more than that. and what about your 75 pay? Wow. Negotiating pay for aircraft you don't have and ignoring extremely low pay for aircraft you do have. ALPA, at its best, negotiating away compensation, one day at a time.

 

[LSS]

Obvioiusly, friend, you have no clue what fun that is about to begin- you guys in the east have taught 1,800 of us in the west that rules don't matter, ethics and morals- who cares about that-- it is all about disruption and not honoring agreements. Unfortunately the east chose not to play nice in the sandbox. So if you think you can subvert one third of the pilot group and actually believe harmony will prevail after the 17th you are pretty naive, my friend. Without ALPA protecting the east, you guys are left naked to a whole new world of litigation, disruption and will have LOA93 for years to come.
One day you may realize all actions have consequences, and it kills me to have to say this. We could of had a nice, unified work force together. You chose to fight us with USAPA, so harmony will never be possible. I am sorry you cannot see that. For me and most of us on the west, USAPA is the enemy- and always will be. You will have an ineffective union where 1/3 of the members will do anything to subvert the dictatorship of USAPA. It sounds like a lot of this is news to you, but it really shouldn't be. Any logical person at this point would understand there is going to be a groundswell of opposition against you guys. However, after the fantasy you all have been living about the finality of the seniority award, I am not surprised you cannot figure out what awaits you after the 17th.

As has been the West's tactic from day one... threaten away... You think this is "fun". How immature! You will reap what you sow. For all of you, it's only about the Nic award... as the majority of you despise ALPA as much as the East. Suprised, I will not be the least bit surprised by anything you try to do. "Groundswell"?... YOU HAVE ALREADY WITNESSED AN EAST "GROUNDSWELL"... GUESS WHO WILL WIN THIS ELECTION? And my guess is that until you join USAPA, you have no grounds for a suit of any kind. Not a member... DFR won't fly... Won't pay dues... bad standing... no voice... Prechilill... do what the heck you want... as you will... but don't blame the east for your predicament. You all have the power... but if you want to throw it away because of your hatred... far be it from me to try to convince you otherwise.

 

[prechilill]

As has been the West's tactic from day one... threaten away... You think this is "fun". How immature! You will reap what you sow. For all of you, it's only about the Nic award... as the majority of you despise ALPA as much as the East. Suprised, I will not be the least bit surprised by anything you try to do. "Groundswell"?... YOU HAVE ALREADY WITNESSED AN EAST "GROUNDSWELL"... GUESS WHO WILL WIN THIS ELECTION? And my guess is that until you join USAPA, you have no grounds for a suit of any kind. Not a member... DFR won't fly... Won't pay dues... bad standing... no voice... Prechilill... do what the heck you want... as you will... but don't blame the east for your predicament. You all have the power... but if you want to throw it away because of your hatred... far be it from me to try to convince you otherwise.

Nicolau protects what we broght to the merger. You are trying to steal our seniority from us. Without Parker USAir was going to be liquidated- remember that...

 

[EastUS]

You are trying to steal our seniority from us.

"seniority"!!??

Now..THAT'S truly hilarious. Thanks You're almost making my sunken eyes, scraggly grey hair, and sloped, aged shoulders shake completely apart, just from laughter.....

From The Definitive AWA-Alpoid Dictionary for the term "Cross-Threaded": "I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."/"I am not surprised you cannot figure out what awaits you after the 17th."


Prechilled: "Bradford epitomizes what the USAir pilot has become: a scraggly-haired, head full of gray with sunken eyes and drooping shoulders wearing three measly stripes. Who couldn't feel sorry for such a fellow? Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote. Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

" I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group" Me too..but; with attitudes like yours..... that may involve some goodly amount of time wasted......

PS: I've come to "accept" the "Ho Ho Ho!..St Nic is coming to town!!" west sense of "Righteous" entitlement...or at least understand your perspectives somewhat. What I've recently marveled at's your ability to offer the sort of patronizing insults towards older pilots with far more flight time than you can currently even imagine for yourself...simply because they/we can't seem to appreciate how much more "important" you obviously are.

 

[wopr21]

Be very, very carefull what you wish for. In case it's escaped you entirely; Alpo did absolutely NOTHING usefull for the East pilots, who were/are the majority within the Awa-US debacle. Where/How that should afford you some fantasized benefit from having any majority within any Alpoid manufactured/"processed" fiasco is a complete mystery..and ANY bargaining agency can always go for arbitration as a last resort....Fetch those Alpoid cards and dice at your pleasure good sir..especially since that's all that Alpo actually has to offer.

Good luck in any future merger-ville over there at UAL....

Really, I can't wait to see what happens to them when they try to come after that " entitled "747 capt position.
BTW , What happens to union members in a closed shop who don't pay dues.....UR FIRED.

 

[LSS]

Nicolau protects what we broght to the merger. You are trying to steal our seniority from us. Without Parker USAir was going to be liquidated- remember that...

And from you statements... YOU are the definitive authority on this, I suppose?... US was forecast by all the "aviation experts" to be history countless times in the past... but it never happened .... Without Lakefield (as bad as I thought he was) he was solely a money guy and who was able to bring it all together... You can speak again... for the millionth time about AWA -- the company... (not you... because you had absolutely NOTHING to say about it any more than we had on the East) saving AAA from certain doom... but you can speculate, postulate... do whatever the heck you want to do, but it will all be for naught... you have no definitive proof of anything... nothing, nada!

YOUR SENIORITY?... THAT'S RIGHT... IT'S ALL ABOUT "YOU!". WHAT ABOUT THE 27 YEAR OLD F/O WHO HAS A PROBATIONARY PILOT PUT IN FRONT OF HIM? I GUESS THAT IS NOT STEALING... (oh, I forgot... because of ALPA merger "policy" 'guidelines," BS "career expectations"... which can change from one day to the next... that TRUMPS WHAT IS RIGHT AND FAIR... and based upon your position, I guess the verdict in the criminal prosecution of OJ was just and correct... RIGHT!). You people just amaze me with your righteous indignation. Do whatever you want... as I'm certain you will... no lost sleep here.

 

[prechilill]

And from you statements... YOU are the definitive authority on this, I suppose?... US was forecast by all the "aviation experts" to be history countless times in the past... but it never happened .... Without Lakefield (as bad as I thought he was) he was solely a money guy and who was able to bring it all together... You can speak again... for the millionth time about AWA -- the company... (not you... because you had absolutely NOTHING to say about it any more than we had on the East) saving AAA from certain doom... but you can speculate, postulate... do whatever the heck you want to do, but it will all be for naught... you have no definitive proof of anything... nothing, nada!

YOUR SENIORITY?... THAT'S RIGHT... IT'S ALL ABOUT "YOU!". WHAT ABOUT THE 27 YEAR OLD F/O WHO HAS A PROBATIONARY PILOT PUT IN FRONT OF HIM? I GUESS THAT IS NOT STEALING... (oh, I forgot... because of ALPA merger "policy" 'guidelines," BS "career expectations"... which can change from one day to the next... that TRUMPS WHAT IS RIGHT AND FAIR... and based upon your position, I guess the verdict in the criminal prosecution of OJ was just and correct... RIGHT!). You people just amaze me with your righteous indignation. Do whatever you want... as I'm certain you will... no lost sleep here.

It is unfortunate you misunderstand the concept of seniority and how it relates in mergers. Nobody is arguing you had the worst career of a major airline pilot. Your hardships, however, do not entitle you to seniority which you did not bring to the merger. Period. The law is on our side, contrary to what your gypsie lawyer is telling you.
Every day you wake up please understand that you will be living under LOA 93 and eventually the Nicolau list will be the seniority you will live by. There are no alternatives to binding arbitration. This is the future you chose and be happy with the consequences. Parker is going to save a lot of money with you guys.

 

[EastUS]

It is unfortunate you misunderstand the concept of seniority....

It sure is... I'll just never "get" the "It's ALL about MEEE!!!" concept fully...much less that older, more experienced fellows should be objects for patronizing contempt. It does appear that our "understanding" about seniority is clearly at odds.

As for your predictions of the future?...You're on record most recently with the notion that USAPA will be lucky to get half the east pilots' votes. Let's simply start with that one,...and see how everything afterwards evolves.

 

[LSS]

It is unfortunate you misunderstand the concept of seniority and how it relates in mergers. Nobody is arguing you had the worst career of a major airline pilot. Your hardships, however, do not entitle you to seniority which you did not bring to the merger. Period. The law is on our side, contrary to what your gypsie lawyer is telling you.
Every day you wake up please understand that you will be living under LOA 93 and eventually the Nicolau list will be the seniority you will live by. There are no alternatives to binding arbitration. This is the future you chose and be happy with the consequences. Parker is going to save a lot of money with you guys.

Prechilli... There is no misunderstanding of the concept of seniority. I, nor the majority of the pilots I speak with have ever said that "the west pilots should pay for the travesties which have been visited upon the East." Seniority is seniority... So in your opinion, based upon your philosophy, the pilots should all be either penalized or handsomely rewarded based upon matters over which they had no control. Well if you believe what you state... then no surprises there because of the ALPA brainwashing you've evidently experienced... Just screw your fellow pilot... fraternity... be dam*#d.

As far as what you brought to the merger?" What you brought to the merger is in the eye of the beholder... and the opinionated think they know everything... Did you have wide-body flying at the time of the merger? I think not!... So AWA MEC West runs out and "negotiates"... (translation... gives away any hope for improvements in) wide body flying in the immediate future)... and negotiates a "me too" clause in the LOA. Just make certain that your stellar negotiating team doesn't pursue this "me too" clause in their Section 6 negotiations... as the company will shove LOA 93 down your throats so fast it will make you head spin.

Unbelievable!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Every day you wake up please understand that you will be living under LOA 93 and eventually the Nicolau list will be the seniority you will live by. There are no alternatives to binding arbitration. This is the future you chose and be happy with the consequences. Parker is going to save a lot of money with you guys.

In that case welcome to my world. Since December we are considered one group. Unified or not. After USAPA wins the election, the process of reconciliation has to begin. What bar would you like to start from? Your contract or ours? But make no mistake that separate operations / contract will soon be a thing of the past.

When given a vote on the next contract, which one do you think will pass? One with the Nic or one without?

 

[prechilill]

In that case welcome to my world. Since December we are considered one group. Unified or not. After USAPA wins the election, the process of reconciliation has to begin. What bar would you like to start from? Your contract or ours? But make no mistake that separate operations / contract will soon be a thing of the past.

When given a vote on the next contract, which one do you think will pass? One with the Nic or one without?

Nic won't be in the contract-- it is illegal. Your gypsie lawyer is wrong, like he has been at UAL, ACA and even before the APA fired him. One day you may figure this out.
The fact Theur left as VIce PResident of USAPA is telling. There is little hope of your misaligned effort from passing because some East pilots have a little bit of common sense- they don't by into your fiction about selectively changing seniority after it has already been determined. Dream what you wish, reality again will deal you a surprise like it has so many times before during your career at USAir. Your misfortune is not a ticket to my seniority. Nicolau supported this concept by using the guidelines from our mutual association. It is a little late for regret, my friend.
Regarding USAPA, understand the Phoenix road show was just a taste of what lays ahead. The America West pilots have the determination to keep people like Bradford right where he belongs: in the right seat. It is unfortunate Theur (or whatver that guys name is that just gave up on USAPA and quit the VP job) was junior to me. Oh well. Eventually we will see a lot more attrition on the east which will make you guys increasingly less relevant with your claim on majority rule.

 

[prechilill]

As far as what you brought to the merger?" What you brought to the merger is in the eye of the beholder... and the opinionated think they know everything... Did you have wide-body flying at the time of the merger? I think not!... So AWA MEC West runs out and "negotiates"... (translation... gives away any hope for improvements in) wide body flying in the immediate future)... and negotiates a "me too" clause in the LOA. Just make certain that your stellar negotiating team doesn't pursue this "me too" clause in their Section 6 negotiations... as the company will shove LOA 93 down your throats so fast it will make you head spin.

Unbelievable!

There is quite a bit you do not understand. THat is ok, after the 17th you will learn more. Your job will probably revolve around LOA93 for quite a while. If USAir picks up more widebodies, we will have the opportunity to fly them. Our section 6 negotiations will continue without the east.
Have a nice evening.