ALPA/USAPA/Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/12-4/19

[sharktooth]

I wouldn't want the broad that won money from McDonalds for spilling hot coffee on herself to defend me either.

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

Perhaps those darn liberals, after numerous failed exams, graduated you anyway from grade school but you might wish to read the court documents about that "broad". I believe her award was mainly due to the harassment visited on her by McDonald's. Funny, if McDonalds had not harassed her she would not have gotten anything, but then, you must be blissful.

 

[b737fo]

You obviously have no clue about Woody. Hope we don't need his expertise in saving a pilot from the company, but you could not ask for a more able advocate than him. Speculating on the future performance of a volunteer as not being in the best interests of all pilots is pure FUD. Plus, it's a little late now to change anything concerning the vote. So you must do this to keep inciting the division that is between the east / west pilots. I keep wondering, why?

Inciting division? Oh maybe I should be asking forgiveness from those great minds in the East who have a problem with an alternate opinion. Doesn't appear to me that the West (or is it drunk, drug running, scabs) has exclusive rights on throwing gas on this fire week in and week out. As to future performance, past practice speaks volumes to me and how am I to trust anyone at their word if they tell me to ignore their past diatribes? I respect WM's past expertise in such situations but he has apparently made it abundantly clear what his attitude is to the west coasters.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Inciting division? Oh maybe I should be asking forgiveness from those great minds in the East who have a problem with an alternate opinion. Doesn't appear to me that the West (or is it drunk, drug running, scabs) has exclusive rights on throwing gas on this fire week in and week out. As to future performance, past practice speaks volumes to me and how am I to trust anyone at their word if they tell me to ignore their past diatribes? I respect WM's past expertise in such situations but he has apparently made it abundantly clear what his attitude is to the west coasters.

You don't need to ask for anything when USAPA prevails. With the exception of the one issue we vehemently disagree with, there is much that USAPA can do on behalf of all pilots. How much, is dependent on how unified we can become. I don't expect winning many supporters out west in the near term, but deeds by the volunteers including Woody, I hope will persuade dissenters who will at least admit that USAPA representing only the USAirways pilots is more advantageous than ALPA.

Past practice you say? As usual you confuse USAPA and ALPA. What past practice has the USAPA name on it? Was USAPA part of the TA? JNC negotiations? Were we part of the east MEC? LEC's? In all cases that was ALPA. Many USAPA volunteers and supporters are not even ALPA members. So please don't lay any of that trust BS in USAPA's lap.

 

[b737fo]

Past practice you say? As usual you confuse USAPA and ALPA. What past practice has the USAPA name on it? Was USAPA part of the TA? JNC negotiations? Were we part of the east MEC? LEC's? In all cases that was ALPA. Many USAPA volunteers and supporters are not even ALPA members. So please don't lay any of that trust BS in USAPA's lap.

Wrong again my friend. I am speaking in terms of one volunteers' attitudes towards a group that he is going to "fairly" represent. Go ahead and try to bring the ALPA misery train into this if you want but my post had nothing to do with what has occurred with the union currently on property. Nice try on the spin though.

 

[flytchick]

No one needs to ask for anything when USAPA prevails?????

So then you have at this very moment a COMPLETE list of all contacts in Usapa insurance, medical, EAP, legal, retirement, scheduling, professional standards, etc??? So are you saying that within HOURS of Usapa being on the property you are fully and financially solvent to help each and every pilot with anything that can happen to them in the course of their duty day? If so - please publish the list of contacts and how much financially you are willing to back that pilot up. List please - with phone numbers of course......

 

[sharktooth]

No one needs to ask for anything when USAPA prevails?????

So then you have at this very moment a COMPLETE list of all contacts in Usapa insurance, medical, EAP, legal, retirement, scheduling, professional standards, etc??? So are you saying that within HOURS of Usapa being on the property you are fully and financially solvent to help each and every pilot with anything that can happen to them in the course of their duty day? If so - please publish the list of contacts and how much financially you are willing to back that pilot up. List please - with phone numbers of course......

I think the information you seek is on the USAPA website, with names, phone numbers, etc. They do not have the costly infrastructure found at ALPA National and with the same dues structure, it would seem financial viability should be the least of your worries.
Representation? You have experienced pilot advocates who have volunteered to represent you at the chief pilots office. By exiting ALPA, you will finally have advocates for pilots and not management. Instead of a union staffed with management enablers, you can have a strong union with each representative no more than one person away from the line pilot, accountable to all. The agility that will become apparent by no longer being tied to six other carrier's needs and wants might surprise you. Best of all, you are now in charge of your own future, no longer will issues critical to you be ignored by the will of competitors.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No one needs to ask for anything when USAPA prevails?????

So then you have at this very moment a COMPLETE list of all contacts in Usapa insurance, medical, EAP, legal, retirement, scheduling, professional standards, etc??? So are you saying that within HOURS of Usapa being on the property you are fully and financially solvent to help each and every pilot with anything that can happen to them in the course of their duty day? If so - please publish the list of contacts and how much financially you are willing to back that pilot up. List please - with phone numbers of course......

Yes.

It's all in place and the money is there on day one.

Go to the USAPA website for 90% of the information you seek. Anything that you cannot find, email the communications department and they will give you the rest. The entire infrastructure is in place and all it needs is the NMB to turn on the switch.

 

[767jetz]

With the voting deadline fast approaching, and the merger news that is likely coming this week, I think two things will happen. (IMO)

1- Those on the fence who have not voted yet will see the wave of mergers as a bad time to ditch ALPA, regardless of how much they hate ALPA. Their thinking will be... what good will USAPA do for me if, within 6 months, we are merged with a much larger airline and end up as APA or ALPA again anyway. If we are perceived as a group who says "we are the majority and can force whatever we want on others," how will we be treated when the tables are turned and we are by far the minority again.

2- Those who have voted already thinking that the merger frenzy was over and the DL/NW deal was dead, will start to reconsider and some will change their vote. (If I'm not mistaken, one can change their vote as often as one likes until the deadline.)

Then, if USAPA is not successful they will spin it as a hollow victory for ALPA and claim that the merger talk unfairly tilted the landscape, biasing people against them for the wrong reasons. Additionally, IMO many of the tactics USAPA is currently using to argue over who is and isn't eligible to vote is merely strategic positioning to create a basis to challenge any result that is not in their favor. The law suits will continue until their coffers run out.

(For those of you ready to "flame on!" be advised that my fire suit is donned. My only response is that everything I said is prefaced with "IMO." So have at it. h34r: )

 

[end_of_alpa]

With the voting deadline fast approaching, and the merger news that is likely coming this week, I think two things will happen. (IMO)

1- Those on the fence who have not voted yet will see the wave of mergers as a bad time to ditch ALPA, regardless of how much they hate ALPA. Their thinking will be... what good will USAPA do for me if, within 6 months, we are merged with a much larger airline and end up as APA or ALPA again anyway. If we are perceived as a group who says "we are the majority and can force whatever we want on others," how will we be treated when the tables are turned and we are by far the minority again.

2- Those who have voted already thinking that the merger frenzy was over and the DL/NW deal was dead, will start to reconsider and some will change their vote. (If I'm not mistaken, one can change their vote as often as one likes until the deadline.)

Then, if USAPA is not successful they will spin it as a hollow victory for ALPA and claim that the merger talk unfairly tilted the landscape, biasing people against them for the wrong reasons. Additionally, IMO many of the tactics USAPA is currently using to argue over who is and isn't eligible to vote is merely strategic positioning to create a basis to challenge any result that is not in their favor. The law suits will continue until their coffers run out.

(For those of you ready to "flame on!" be advised that my fire suit is donned. My only response is that everything I said is prefaced with "IMO." So have at it. h34r: )

Your "opinion" would be wrong. Once the vote is cast there is no changing it. In fact, with the "wave" of mergers the only protection you have is OUTSIDE ALPA merger policy. This is why the Delta pilots won't agree to arbitration.

"In a traditional merger scenario, it is common for each Merger Committee to enter negotiations in a very adversarial role with negotiating positions that are very far apart as they posture for the benefit of their pilot group. In a successful negotiation, over time, both parties will find common ground and reach a solution that represents a compromise between the two positions. Almost always, however, the process ends in an abdication of leadership and subsequent binding arbitration.

We were not, however, in a traditional merger scenario. We were breaking new ground and held before us a unique opportunity, but the window for that opportunity was narrow and not able to accommodate either the lengthy timeline or the adversarial relationship of the traditional approach. With that in mind, we approached the negotiating table not at an extreme, but in the middle; not adversarial, but cooperative. We presented a rational and fair integration method that would have provided all pilots of the merged corporation with a post-merger relative seniority very close to that of their respective pre-merger relative positions and included an innovative method of preserving premium flying positions for both pilot groups going forward many years. The other committee took a different approach."

http://crewroom.alpa.org/dal/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=2421

"Delta Air Lines Inc.'s pilots union rejected Wednesday the idea of submitting to arbitration with their counterparts at Northwest Airlines Corp. to break their impasse over integrating seniority lists as part of a possible combination of the carriers.

"In short, there will be no binding arbitration," Lee Moak, head of Delta's pilots union, said in an e-mail to The Associated Press."

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-business13mar19

Taken right out of the Rakestraw Case. Let the power of the majority carry the day!

ALPA as we know it is at an end....most likely ALPA will get out of the "representational" or union business and re-invent itself as a "for profit - union services" organization (if they were smart) and let each union truly represent themselves. Then the issue of "ALPA binding arbitration" no longer becomes a loop hole and all the pilots can whipsaw themselves into aligning themselves with their proper sources of revenue....their companies.

This is what happens in a "deregulated" environment and I for one am ready to compete. So are at least +3,200 other pilots I KNOW who are willing to do the same. This industry is going to make Lending Tree look like utopia. "Where pilots compete...management wins!"

Good luck at United...you're going to need it.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

No one needs to ask for anything when USAPA prevails?????

So then you have at this very moment a COMPLETE list of all contacts in Usapa insurance, medical, EAP, legal, retirement, scheduling, professional standards, etc??? So are you saying that within HOURS of Usapa being on the property you are fully and financially solvent to help each and every pilot with anything that can happen to them in the course of their duty day? If so - please publish the list of contacts and how much financially you are willing to back that pilot up. List please - with phone numbers of course......

Usapa is the cure all of all cure all's. Once we are 'under' their guidance all will be well. No more fighting, fairness for all.

Their endless supply of $$ and experience (not to leave out the outstanding leadership that requires no plan b ) we will enter the promised land, no bankruptcy, agreements honored, and the best of all- truth, justice and the American way. I’m giddy with excitement!!

I've read the posts and been to the web site, usapa is the end all of all end alls. I'm looking forward the end of high gas prices, layoffs, the bad economy and ALPA screwing everything up. I now realize how wrong we all have all been about this organization, after their legal guru said that if there is another merger with an ALPA carrier they are going to willing join the cult, er, I mean union. Look at the big wins he's had at NWA, UAL and ACA!!

I'm a little fuzzy on the cure for world hunger and world peace but I'm sure it's there somewhere, after all why would they lie?

"Seniority is like crew meals, it's all negotiableâ€￾ and “we don’t have a plan bâ€￾ are the cornerstones of this group. Their attorney spoke of ‘negotiating the Nicholau award away’ on their own video, but that disappeared from their web site so I no longer fear that, after all why would these not live up to their word?

Have faith, all is well. And oh by the way, try the kool aide, IT’S KILLER!!

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Your "opinion" would be wrong. Once the vote is cast there is no changing it. In fact, with the "wave" of mergers the only protection you have is OUTSIDE ALPA merger policy. This is why the Delta pilots won't agree to arbitration.


http://crewroom.alpa.org/dal/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=2421


http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-business13mar19

Taken right out of the Rakestraw Case. Let the power of the majority carry the day!

ALPA as we know it is at an end....most likely ALPA will get out of the "representational" or union business and re-invent itself as a "for profit - union services" organization (if they were smart) and let each union truly represent themselves. Then the issue of "ALPA binding arbitration" no longer becomes a loop hole and all the pilots can whipsaw themselves into aligning themselves with their proper sources of revenue....their companies.

This is what happens in a "deregulated" environment and I for one am ready to compete. So are at least +3,200 other pilots I KNOW who are willing to do the same. This industry is going to make Lending Tree look like utopia. "Where pilots compete...management wins!"

Good luck at United...you're going to need it.

Didn't congress pass a law that requires arbitration in mergers now? IE the American-TWA situation??

In Rakestraw didn't the $200 million in concessions have something to due with the outcome?

Do you have $200 million to give to get your way?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Didn't congress pass a law that requires arbitration in mergers now? IE the American-TWA situation??

Yes. See http://1.usairlinepilots.org/HR2764_does_n..._members%20.htm

In Rakestraw didn't the $200 million in concessions have something to due with the outcome?

Yes. Because ALPA ended the strike without a signed INITIAL contract with the provision of protecting the 570....

"The strike ended on June 15, 1985, without a new collective bargaining agreement. The striking pilots returned to work with their original seniority. Members of the Group of 570 who reported during the strike and the 219 fleet qualified replacements retained their positions; the 320 student pilots began work in due course. ALPA and United agreed to disagree about the fate of those in the Group of 570 who had not worked during the strike. United insisted that it would never employ them, and ALPA (argued) that this was illegal discrimination on account of concerted activity (that is, honoring the picket lines).

United threatened to fire those of the Group of 570 who had been hired by virtue of the injunction. Under the Railway Labor Act, the pilots could not threaten a strike in response. With no leverage at the bargaining table, ALPA took the best offer United was willing to make: it would retain strikers from the Group of 570 with a seniority date of November 9, 1985. (November 9 was the date of the preferential hire list required by the district judge's injunction.) ALPA promised that "it will never seek to challenge [United's] action . . . in court or before an arbitrator, nor will it seek to raise the issue of the 'Group of 570' relative seniority position as part of any future negotiations . . . regarding any subject whatsoever." Every working member of the Group of 570 signed a document releasing both United and ALPA from all liability. (The Supreme Court of Colorado has held that the releases are valid.)

Rancor among the pilots and the lack of a collective bargaining agreement drove ALPA and United back to the table. Management came around to the view that efficient operation of the airline required peace with ALPA, and that the price of peace was to reverse the seniority positions of the Groups of 570 and 539. Knowing that the union dearly wanted this reversal, United held out for concessions. In April 1991 labor and management signed a new collective bargaining agreement. In exchange for concessions worth $ 200 million, ALPA obtained the seniority dates it preferred."

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/misc_docs/Rakestraw-case.doc

It COST ALPA because of the lack of leverage to "buy the seniority" back UNLESS THEY MADE CONCESSIONS. The circumstances here are as different as night and day. You allude to a "cost" factor for USAPA to "reorder" a PROPOSED LIST.....a list that is NOT VOTED IN BY THE MAJORITY....which is very different than the STRIKE issues United went through.

The same "conditions and restrictions" in the now defunct Transition agreement (both sides are negotiating separate contracts under ALPA, thereby rendering the Transition agreement MOOT) agreed to with the company and ALPA will most likely be the same for USAPA.....ONLY SENIORITY INTEGRATION is to be a "cost neutral" proposal....no bump/no flush, no cross training, protection for current training, etc. Otherwise, any list you propose that meets those standards we will approve. In short, there is NO ONE WAY TO MERGE THE LIST.

Do you have $200 million to give to get your way?

We won't need it. Only Section 22 Seniority is to be "cost neutral". The rest is negotiable....as always.

See you in court.

 

[end_of_alpa]

TO ALL:

I called the NMB today and asked how soon the election results would be posted. They said the results should be ONLINE roughly 30 MINUTES after the close of the election on THURSDAY APRIL 17th, 2008 at 14:00 EDT.

APRIL 17th, 2008 14:30 EDT

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Wrong again my friend. I am speaking in terms of one volunteers' attitudes towards a group that he is going to "fairly" represent. Go ahead and try to bring the ALPA misery train into this if you want but my post had nothing to do with what has occurred with the union currently on property. Nice try on the spin though.

Wrong you say? Not by a long shot. Unless you know Woody personally your conclusions about him don't even come close. What I said is no spin either. You are the one who tried to bring up the trust factor. Therefore your opinion about him as not representing "Fairly" all pilots is just plain wrong. Hope you don't have to find out, but if you do, I would rather have him on my side than ALPA's representation.

 

[b737fo]

Wrong you say? Not by a long shot. Unless you know Woody personally your conclusions about him don't even come close. What I said is no spin either. You are the one who tried to bring up the trust factor. Therefore your opinion about him as not representing "Fairly" all pilots is just plain wrong. Hope you don't have to find out, but if you do, I would rather have him on my side than ALPA's representation.

I guess we'll just disagree on that then. I have the utmost respect and I am very satisfied with the performance of those people within ALPA out here who have volunteered to represent their fellow pilots in time of need when called to see the boss. I know I can trust them if I ever needed their services.

On another note it doesn't appear anything earth shattering occurred in CLT during the USAPA meeting. I have yet to see any updates about it. For those in the know, was there anything juicy or was it just administrative work?