AIRBUS CHECKS WHO IS LYING !!!
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zonecontroller
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Well if Chris Chiames leaves the company in the near future and the company says things like the regretful departure etc. We know the checks are gone!
If the company has no plans to farm out the heavy work then the company needs to make a statement to that affect instead of leaving the maintenance dept in a continued uproar.
Believe it or not, a happy workforce is a productive workforce!
If the company has no plans to farm out the heavy work then the company needs to make a statement to that affect instead of leaving the maintenance dept in a continued uproar.
Believe it or not, a happy workforce is a productive workforce!
pitguy
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Even though I may not be a big fan of the IAM. They have "always" stated for years that the work would be done in-house and it was in the contract. The only question there ever was is where would it be done.
Here is a post I put up on these message boards to "US Airways, Inc" (a.k.a. Chris Chiames, the company's Senior Vice President - Corporate Affairs):
Post dated Jan. 5, 2003-
The rumor in PIT is that heavy maintenance is gone and to be outsourced and that is why the voluntary furlough excludes about 1000 mechanics. It appears they are going to be hitting the streets soon. So chipmunn hold onto your hat and we will see if the employees questions are answered or avoided (again).
Maybe this can be cleared up by Chris Chiames (a.k.a. US Airways, Inc)
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Chris Chiames (a.k.a. US Airways, Inc),
Please answer the follow questions.
-Will the company try to get out of any severance pay plans?
-When reading the latest voluntary furlough for the mechanics it says you needed to have seniority in your basic position before 1-1-89. Is the company going to lay off more mechanics than what has been announced?
-Is the company going to attempt to vender heavy maintenance on the Boeing or Airbus equipment?
Please respond Chris Chiames (a.k.a. US Airways, Inc).
((((When I did not get a response I then posted this below late in the day))))
DELLDUDE and others,
The concern about outsourcing heavy maintenance out is raised from the option of the company having an airplane that is due a heavy maintenance check and removing that airplane from lease and returning it to the leaser whom then has the airplane heavy maintenance check done and the re-leases the airplane back to the airline after the heavy maintenance check was done hence bypassing the union contract. Can this be done or would it? I do not know. It does sound feasible and I read that Airbus is starting such a program. This is part of the reason for the questions for Chris Chiames.
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Now take a gander at this below quoting his response posted later in the evening to answer my questions that was posted on these very boards by the company's Senior Vice President - Corporate Affairs:
PITguy, I apologize for the delay. I haven't been online and just saw your note.
We are not going to outsource heavy maintenance in PIT or elsewhere. We never even proposed it. (Unlike UA which has proposed the outsourcing of heavy maintenance.)
We will pay all furlough pay as provided for in the contract.
We have no further plans to lay off more mechanics beyond what is published. With the new commitment to operate 279 a/c, we will need just about all the mechanics on the property to perform the maintenance we have scheduled, since our fleet plan anticipated retiring some planes that we will now be flying.
Finally, we are not trying to vendor maintenance with either Boeing or Airbus.
Chris Chiames
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Sounds like he knows it is in the contract when he stated:
"We never even proposed it. (Unlike UA which has proposed the outsourcing of heavy maintenance.)"
-They know it is in the contract, but they may try to cut another deal. Gee maybe another vote.
Here is a post I put up on these message boards to "US Airways, Inc" (a.k.a. Chris Chiames, the company's Senior Vice President - Corporate Affairs):
Post dated Jan. 5, 2003-
The rumor in PIT is that heavy maintenance is gone and to be outsourced and that is why the voluntary furlough excludes about 1000 mechanics. It appears they are going to be hitting the streets soon. So chipmunn hold onto your hat and we will see if the employees questions are answered or avoided (again).
Maybe this can be cleared up by Chris Chiames (a.k.a. US Airways, Inc)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Chiames (a.k.a. US Airways, Inc),
Please answer the follow questions.
-Will the company try to get out of any severance pay plans?
-When reading the latest voluntary furlough for the mechanics it says you needed to have seniority in your basic position before 1-1-89. Is the company going to lay off more mechanics than what has been announced?
-Is the company going to attempt to vender heavy maintenance on the Boeing or Airbus equipment?
Please respond Chris Chiames (a.k.a. US Airways, Inc).
((((When I did not get a response I then posted this below late in the day))))
DELLDUDE and others,
The concern about outsourcing heavy maintenance out is raised from the option of the company having an airplane that is due a heavy maintenance check and removing that airplane from lease and returning it to the leaser whom then has the airplane heavy maintenance check done and the re-leases the airplane back to the airline after the heavy maintenance check was done hence bypassing the union contract. Can this be done or would it? I do not know. It does sound feasible and I read that Airbus is starting such a program. This is part of the reason for the questions for Chris Chiames.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++
Now take a gander at this below quoting his response posted later in the evening to answer my questions that was posted on these very boards by the company's Senior Vice President - Corporate Affairs:
PITguy, I apologize for the delay. I haven't been online and just saw your note.
We are not going to outsource heavy maintenance in PIT or elsewhere. We never even proposed it. (Unlike UA which has proposed the outsourcing of heavy maintenance.)
We will pay all furlough pay as provided for in the contract.
We have no further plans to lay off more mechanics beyond what is published. With the new commitment to operate 279 a/c, we will need just about all the mechanics on the property to perform the maintenance we have scheduled, since our fleet plan anticipated retiring some planes that we will now be flying.
Finally, we are not trying to vendor maintenance with either Boeing or Airbus.
Chris Chiames
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^
Sounds like he knows it is in the contract when he stated:
"We never even proposed it. (Unlike UA which has proposed the outsourcing of heavy maintenance.)"
-They know it is in the contract, but they may try to cut another deal. Gee maybe another vote.
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On 8/11/2003 9:27:04 AM zonecontroller wrote:
Well if Chris Chiames leaves the company in the near future and the company says things like the regretful departure etc. We know the checks are gone!
If the company has no plans to farm out the heavy work then the company needs to make a statement to that affect instead of leaving the maintenance dept in a continued uproar.
Believe it or not, a happy workforce is a productive workforce!
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zonecontroller,On 8/11/2003 9:27:04 AM zonecontroller wrote:
Well if Chris Chiames leaves the company in the near future and the company says things like the regretful departure etc. We know the checks are gone!
If the company has no plans to farm out the heavy work then the company needs to make a statement to that affect instead of leaving the maintenance dept in a continued uproar.
Believe it or not, a happy workforce is a productive workforce!
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Your are 100% absolutely right on this. I hear mechanics on a nightly basis worrying about weither or not they are going to have a future with this company? How in Gods name can anyone be giving it all thier best efforts honestly ...when clouds like this loom over their heads on a daily basis?...a person can't plan for next week , much less next year under these conditions.
Sure people are going to do whats right..and what's legal...cuz they have the responsibility lives as well as licenses in their pocket to protect ...but who's to say that the outside stresses are not causing problems in regards to productivity?
Will a demoralized person give it the extra effort in all accounts? I can say based on hearing the talk...that "Extra Effort" is rarely part of the individual game plan..in light of how people are being treated..and made to feel about their livelihoods future.
Two nights ago...I was speaking with a mechanic in CLT whom was sitting outside during his scheduled break, The guy had his face in his hands , and I said whats up man? His statement was in keeping with exactly what I've heard in PIT before too. "Had I only known 14 or 15 years ago that this is what avaition was going to become , I would have set my goals in a different direction" . How sad is that???
Statements like this are now as common as a summer thunderstorm in Georgia...and why is this? Is it because of the individuals lack of contribuion or desire to excell? Survey says NO !!
This industry and USAirways itself is now payng the bills come due for too many excesses in the past..and from a select few whom failed to position this airline to weather anything that smacks of a down turn in the economy.
We were in fact living a falsely inflatted hay-day up to the point that the US/UA merger failed. Again , was any of this the fault of any laboring person within this company? Survey and facts say NO !! Again , those whom reaped the big salaries and continue to enjoy the privledged life have taken our money..and in many cases our futures with them , only they are on easy street , while others are propping their heads up on the curb of the streets of ruin in some cases.
Dave came to us with a promise of affirmative change....Change has come in many forms...and for many good people the changes have been anything but affirmative. Yet we have stuck it out for the love of what we do in many instances.
Dave also came to us with a promise of being an affective and open communicator with regard to the employee groups. We listened to the point that we have done everything humanly possible to save this airline from the threats of liquidation...and we continue to do so. OK , he communicated once , We responded...it's now time to open up with some honesty on some very heated internal problems.(outsourcing rumors)
I do believe that what we as labor (collectively) have done everything possible to aid this airline in it's past , present and continued times of need , this in my humble opinion should be rewarded with the keeping of Dave's initial promise of being Open and Honest with those whom make this an airline.
Simply put...it's time to put these rumors to rest...and it's time to stop trying to slip around the agreed upon contracts with all the represented labor groups. We have kept our promises with financial and multitudes personal sacrifices...its time that Dave keeps his initial promise to us in return. Plain Speak please !!
By and large people need to believe in the team...and not knowing what to believe in is the un-setteling factor in this on-going problem. Dave S. and Dave B. need to come clean on this subject of outsourcing our work. A bold statement saying that it's NOT USAirways position to seek outside labor in regard to any maintenance beyond the present vendor items would sure go a long way toward righting what most view as a grevous and de-stablizing wrong .
OK Dave...the balls in your court...lets have a bonified integrity check on this topic.
AOG, the company is doing the exact opposite, Al Crellin in PIT and PHL two weeks ago said the company's position on the Airbus work that it is not covered by the contract. He was questioned on it and said Dave S told him that is the company's position on it. That is why Bill F and Roach and Tommy Regan put out all the letters and warnings to the company.
Even in the Charlotte Observer the company is making the same statements:
US Airways may send jet work outside union
Heavy maintenance for Airbus could go to 3rd party
TED REED
Staff Writer
US Airways says it is evaluating whether to contract out to a third-party shop for heavy maintenance on its new fleet of Airbus jets, a move that could save money but would anger its mechanics' union and limit its potential to increase its Charlotte work force.
The first of the airline's 121 Airbus jets comes due for its first heavy maintenance check early next year, about five years after it began flying. The airline must decide whether to invest in new equipment, facilities and training for the work, or hire another company to do it.
US Airways officials raised the possibility of using third-party maintenance on the Airbus planes in a conversation this month with union members, said Bill Wise, president of Charlotte Local 1725 of the International Association of Machinists.
The airline is in the "initial stages of our analysis of our equipment, tooling and facility needs," said US Airways spokesman David Castelveter. He would not say how it communicated the possibility to the union. No decision has been made, he said.
As airlines seek ways to economize during the industry's current economic crisis, they are increasingly looking at the possibility of outsourcing maintenance. Third-party companies do about half of all maintenance work for U.S. airlines. The percentage is less for the major airlines, although all outsource some work.
United Airlines, which is operating under bankruptcy court protection, outsources some heavy maintenance to Timco Aviation Services in Greensboro, one of the largest third-party contractors. United is considered likely to add work in Greensboro.
Some experts question whether third-party shops can provide the same safety levels as shops operated by the airlines. Air Midwest's third-party maintenance arrangement with a small hangar in Huntington, W.Va., was a principal factor in the January crash of a US Airways commuter flight in Charlotte, which killed 21 people, according to testimony at the National Transportation Safety Board hearing last week.
US Airways would be unlikely to contract with a small, isolated hangar like the one in Huntington, however. The airline would likely seek a major provider such as Timco.
The airline already contracts out for occasional light maintenance at most of the 196 airports it serves (it has line maintenance stations at 17 airports). Also, General Electric Corp. does maintenance on some engines it manufactured for US Airways planes.
But US Airways has never outsourced its heavy aircraft maintenance. Members of the International Association of Machinists have done that work since the union signed its first contract with the airline in the late 1940s.
"Contractually, this is our work," Wise said. "It has traditionally been our work, and our collective bargaining agreement covers this work. We will take every step to ensure that the work remains with us.
"We have already made sacrifices and concessions to turn this airline around," Wise added. "The part of the contract that deals with this work was not part of those negotiations."
Castelveter said heavy maintenance on the new Airbus jets is not covered under the contract. "This work is not currently being done by US Airways, and it is not covered under the collective bargaining agreement," he said.
Charlotte, where US Airways employs 1,700 IAM mechanics, could benefit if the airline elected to do the work in-house. US Airways has just two heavy maintenance bases, in Charlotte and Pittsburgh. Even if the work went to Pittsburgh, it is possible that other work slated for Pittsburgh would go to Charlotte.
The airline's Charlotte maintenance base and related shops were completed in 1990 at a cost of about $120 million. The hangar does not operate at full capacity, said Jerry Orr, aviation director at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.
"They have a great big state-of-the-art maintenance hangar here that's 60 percent used, and there's a great technical work force in the Charlotte area," Orr said. "It would help Charlotte if they fully utilize the facilities they have here."
Added Orr: "I think they ought to do the maintenance where they can get the highest quality work for the lowest price. If they can't get that in-house, they won't be competitive as a company."
Airlines' increasing interest in third-party maintenance is motivated by their desire to cut costs, said David Field, Americas editor of Airline Business magazine.
"If you go to an outsider, you don't need as many mechanics on the payroll and you don't need as much expensive real estate," he said. "Maintenance facilities are enormously expensive and take up prime real estate."
A labor friendly company does not make threats and constantly try to circumvent contracts they signed covering their employees.
Even in the Charlotte Observer the company is making the same statements:
US Airways may send jet work outside union
Heavy maintenance for Airbus could go to 3rd party
TED REED
Staff Writer
US Airways says it is evaluating whether to contract out to a third-party shop for heavy maintenance on its new fleet of Airbus jets, a move that could save money but would anger its mechanics' union and limit its potential to increase its Charlotte work force.
The first of the airline's 121 Airbus jets comes due for its first heavy maintenance check early next year, about five years after it began flying. The airline must decide whether to invest in new equipment, facilities and training for the work, or hire another company to do it.
US Airways officials raised the possibility of using third-party maintenance on the Airbus planes in a conversation this month with union members, said Bill Wise, president of Charlotte Local 1725 of the International Association of Machinists.
The airline is in the "initial stages of our analysis of our equipment, tooling and facility needs," said US Airways spokesman David Castelveter. He would not say how it communicated the possibility to the union. No decision has been made, he said.
As airlines seek ways to economize during the industry's current economic crisis, they are increasingly looking at the possibility of outsourcing maintenance. Third-party companies do about half of all maintenance work for U.S. airlines. The percentage is less for the major airlines, although all outsource some work.
United Airlines, which is operating under bankruptcy court protection, outsources some heavy maintenance to Timco Aviation Services in Greensboro, one of the largest third-party contractors. United is considered likely to add work in Greensboro.
Some experts question whether third-party shops can provide the same safety levels as shops operated by the airlines. Air Midwest's third-party maintenance arrangement with a small hangar in Huntington, W.Va., was a principal factor in the January crash of a US Airways commuter flight in Charlotte, which killed 21 people, according to testimony at the National Transportation Safety Board hearing last week.
US Airways would be unlikely to contract with a small, isolated hangar like the one in Huntington, however. The airline would likely seek a major provider such as Timco.
The airline already contracts out for occasional light maintenance at most of the 196 airports it serves (it has line maintenance stations at 17 airports). Also, General Electric Corp. does maintenance on some engines it manufactured for US Airways planes.
But US Airways has never outsourced its heavy aircraft maintenance. Members of the International Association of Machinists have done that work since the union signed its first contract with the airline in the late 1940s.
"Contractually, this is our work," Wise said. "It has traditionally been our work, and our collective bargaining agreement covers this work. We will take every step to ensure that the work remains with us.
"We have already made sacrifices and concessions to turn this airline around," Wise added. "The part of the contract that deals with this work was not part of those negotiations."
Castelveter said heavy maintenance on the new Airbus jets is not covered under the contract. "This work is not currently being done by US Airways, and it is not covered under the collective bargaining agreement," he said.
Charlotte, where US Airways employs 1,700 IAM mechanics, could benefit if the airline elected to do the work in-house. US Airways has just two heavy maintenance bases, in Charlotte and Pittsburgh. Even if the work went to Pittsburgh, it is possible that other work slated for Pittsburgh would go to Charlotte.
The airline's Charlotte maintenance base and related shops were completed in 1990 at a cost of about $120 million. The hangar does not operate at full capacity, said Jerry Orr, aviation director at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.
"They have a great big state-of-the-art maintenance hangar here that's 60 percent used, and there's a great technical work force in the Charlotte area," Orr said. "It would help Charlotte if they fully utilize the facilities they have here."
Added Orr: "I think they ought to do the maintenance where they can get the highest quality work for the lowest price. If they can't get that in-house, they won't be competitive as a company."
Airlines' increasing interest in third-party maintenance is motivated by their desire to cut costs, said David Field, Americas editor of Airline Business magazine.
"If you go to an outsider, you don't need as many mechanics on the payroll and you don't need as much expensive real estate," he said. "Maintenance facilities are enormously expensive and take up prime real estate."
A labor friendly company does not make threats and constantly try to circumvent contracts they signed covering their employees.
Smoke and Mirrors
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Dave can change his mind at any time about the Airbus checks. Back in January the company probably had no desire to outsource these checks.
Lav,
Could you post the exact contract language as it is written in the current agreement? I was told by an AGC once that the reason engine overhaul was farmed to GE was that the company did not have either the facilities or the tooling to do it. I wonder what the exact language is. If there is the vaguest provision in there for tooling/facilities/training, that could be what the company uses an out or bargaining chip, because you get into a case of a judgement call.
If it comes to a judgement call, all bets are off, and it will certainly wind up at a greivance, to be decided later by a judge or arbitrator somewhere. What does it take for this to be ruled a as a "major dispute"? I am pretty sure the IAM cannot delcare it a major dispute unilaterily, but who makes that decision?
Could you post the exact contract language as it is written in the current agreement? I was told by an AGC once that the reason engine overhaul was farmed to GE was that the company did not have either the facilities or the tooling to do it. I wonder what the exact language is. If there is the vaguest provision in there for tooling/facilities/training, that could be what the company uses an out or bargaining chip, because you get into a case of a judgement call.
If it comes to a judgement call, all bets are off, and it will certainly wind up at a greivance, to be decided later by a judge or arbitrator somewhere. What does it take for this to be ruled a as a "major dispute"? I am pretty sure the IAM cannot delcare it a major dispute unilaterily, but who makes that decision?
Well Lavman,
If nothing else , I'm glad provided you another chance to cut and paste the known. My comments were directed to allow a spirited chance to correct some of the things that are being said and done in a manner that all of us to a person view as an improper , if not an illegal attempt at contract breaking by the company.
I think everyone whom has ever logged on to this website knows what the IAM's position is by now...and nobody agrees more than I do with the contents and implied terms of the contract and letters sent out by the IAM...that all Aircraft work , regardless of make or model is ours. Nothing speaks to the contrary that I've ever seen or heard of.....thanks in part to your efforts countless times my friend. You have sold me on the correctness of our standing position....if standing is the operative term anymore?
I have yet to see an exclusion clause in anything written that gives the company an out , to give our work away to any third party. Can we say that we are in agreement on this point without another cut and paste responses like you are trying to educate me on the obvious again? huh?
On the subject of the IAM's latest mailer to all of us. WHAT A WASTE OF OUR MONEY !!!. The same information was available on the internet days prior..and was also available on the Union Bulletin Boards in the work areas....so why pray tell was this a need in their eyes? Sure , those whom are "identified" as on furlough or extended sick leave might have needed this letter...and that's fine , no complaints there, but to go to the expense of bulk mailing to everyone when the rest of us have ready access to this info is a waste of needed funds for the long term battles ahead.
I have heard countless people claim to have chunked this letter without even opening it...some even made comments about marking it "Return to Sendor" out of pure disgust and contempt for the IAM's past and present shortcomings on our behalf. This is not a happy crew Amigo.....and spouting the party line changes that sad fact Nada!!
The IAM should be saving our money for a potential , if not certain legal fight with the company...or maybe even a strike fund if all the current conditions continue into further retrograde on this subject?. I hope it never comes to anything close to that by the way.
Frankly Lavman...I think the IAM's days are numbered at USAirways....if their idea of tough talk with this management group was summed up in that letter? I can invision a 'landslide vote" in favor of AMFA coming sooner than you would care to imagine. As you know, I advocate none of the above , based on what good it has done me to date...which has been ZIPPO...at about the tune of $800 bucks a year in their favor.
From my perspective...I think one is about as pointless/useless as the other at this point.
I see where AMFA did nothing to protect the workers at NW from losing their heavy work...and did AMFA change the shakey groundwork laid by the IAM in regards to keeping UA their heavy work out of TIMCO's hands? Hmmm ?
Where did or does UA's agreements differ from ours that allowed the IAM's work to escape them?...does their contract verbage mirror ours? Christ I hope not !!! The end result makes that abundantly clear to me.
The IAM has one shot...count'em ONE SHOT...and it's a long one, should they fail to retain our work?, they won't have a snowballs chance in hades of remaining here...and even if they do retain the work it's maybe a 50/50 chance at best?
People are simply not willing to live with threats , concessions and all the other negatives from the company...and then continue to pay dues to a union that has been de-fanged or comprimised in many peoples eyes. They want the gutsy representation that we are supposed to be paying for.....Results not words dog-gone-it !! Where is the spirit of people like Jimmy Hoffa or John L.Lewis in thses times of need? Let me guess..on the golf course..or in a bar while we pay the tab for them? I have seen the IAM's best efforts , especially when I got bumped from CLT to PIT ..and then had to go through "Targeted Selection" again , to regain a job I didn't lose to begin with
I can only imagine your cooking up of a "get involved response"...or yet another trip into the dulldrums of "Cut and Paste"..so for arguements sake. Let's just don't..and say we did , OK?
Why should I get involved with something (The IAM or any Union) that I never wanted to be involved with to begin with? They Hi-jacked me into this mess remember? I had no vote on the subject of being represented by the IAM or Gengis Khan , Remember?...so for that , and the money they have somehow legally extorted from me along the way...I think I'm owed some resolve to my satisfaction...and ultimately the satisfaction of all of the represented employees satisfaction , whom will be directly impacted if the IAM fails us on the subject of "Outsourcing".?
That's my rant for the day Lavman...you get involved!!..and fix your be-fuddled union....and then I'll feel good about paying for your services down the road. OK ? Buddy.
If nothing else , I'm glad provided you another chance to cut and paste the known. My comments were directed to allow a spirited chance to correct some of the things that are being said and done in a manner that all of us to a person view as an improper , if not an illegal attempt at contract breaking by the company.
I think everyone whom has ever logged on to this website knows what the IAM's position is by now...and nobody agrees more than I do with the contents and implied terms of the contract and letters sent out by the IAM...that all Aircraft work , regardless of make or model is ours. Nothing speaks to the contrary that I've ever seen or heard of.....thanks in part to your efforts countless times my friend. You have sold me on the correctness of our standing position....if standing is the operative term anymore?
I have yet to see an exclusion clause in anything written that gives the company an out , to give our work away to any third party. Can we say that we are in agreement on this point without another cut and paste responses like you are trying to educate me on the obvious again? huh?
On the subject of the IAM's latest mailer to all of us. WHAT A WASTE OF OUR MONEY !!!. The same information was available on the internet days prior..and was also available on the Union Bulletin Boards in the work areas....so why pray tell was this a need in their eyes? Sure , those whom are "identified" as on furlough or extended sick leave might have needed this letter...and that's fine , no complaints there, but to go to the expense of bulk mailing to everyone when the rest of us have ready access to this info is a waste of needed funds for the long term battles ahead.
I have heard countless people claim to have chunked this letter without even opening it...some even made comments about marking it "Return to Sendor" out of pure disgust and contempt for the IAM's past and present shortcomings on our behalf. This is not a happy crew Amigo.....and spouting the party line changes that sad fact Nada!!
The IAM should be saving our money for a potential , if not certain legal fight with the company...or maybe even a strike fund if all the current conditions continue into further retrograde on this subject?. I hope it never comes to anything close to that by the way.
Frankly Lavman...I think the IAM's days are numbered at USAirways....if their idea of tough talk with this management group was summed up in that letter? I can invision a 'landslide vote" in favor of AMFA coming sooner than you would care to imagine. As you know, I advocate none of the above , based on what good it has done me to date...which has been ZIPPO...at about the tune of $800 bucks a year in their favor.
From my perspective...I think one is about as pointless/useless as the other at this point.
I see where AMFA did nothing to protect the workers at NW from losing their heavy work...and did AMFA change the shakey groundwork laid by the IAM in regards to keeping UA their heavy work out of TIMCO's hands? Hmmm ?
Where did or does UA's agreements differ from ours that allowed the IAM's work to escape them?...does their contract verbage mirror ours? Christ I hope not !!! The end result makes that abundantly clear to me.
The IAM has one shot...count'em ONE SHOT...and it's a long one, should they fail to retain our work?, they won't have a snowballs chance in hades of remaining here...and even if they do retain the work it's maybe a 50/50 chance at best?
People are simply not willing to live with threats , concessions and all the other negatives from the company...and then continue to pay dues to a union that has been de-fanged or comprimised in many peoples eyes. They want the gutsy representation that we are supposed to be paying for.....Results not words dog-gone-it !! Where is the spirit of people like Jimmy Hoffa or John L.Lewis in thses times of need? Let me guess..on the golf course..or in a bar while we pay the tab for them? I have seen the IAM's best efforts , especially when I got bumped from CLT to PIT ..and then had to go through "Targeted Selection" again , to regain a job I didn't lose to begin with
I can only imagine your cooking up of a "get involved response"...or yet another trip into the dulldrums of "Cut and Paste"..so for arguements sake. Let's just don't..and say we did , OK?
Why should I get involved with something (The IAM or any Union) that I never wanted to be involved with to begin with? They Hi-jacked me into this mess remember? I had no vote on the subject of being represented by the IAM or Gengis Khan , Remember?...so for that , and the money they have somehow legally extorted from me along the way...I think I'm owed some resolve to my satisfaction...and ultimately the satisfaction of all of the represented employees satisfaction , whom will be directly impacted if the IAM fails us on the subject of "Outsourcing".?
That's my rant for the day Lavman...you get involved!!..and fix your be-fuddled union....and then I'll feel good about paying for your services down the road. OK ? Buddy.
PITbull
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Smokey Bandit,
NO. Dave does not have the "right" to change his mind. In fact, this is called lying through teeth... and deciding to BREAK RATIFIED "long-standing" CONTRACT LANGUAGE. PERIOD.
Let me say this and you can run (not walk) and tell management PITbull sent ya...
The only salvation for this management at this point (considering all this labor unrest with the busting of all of our contracts, inspite of all the sacrificing done by Labor) is to SELL THE DAMN AIRLINE. Cause if management thinks they can DECIDE to outsource work, SAY GOOD NIGHT AND LIGHTS OUT!
Seems to me more and more every single day that passes, this management and BOD must be looking to "sell" and get out,especially with the price of stock being bid up to $26 and it hasn't even hit the market. Something is at play here, cause you just do not treat ALL employees of a company this disrectful with no regard to honor contract language, and think you can operate an airline for profit.
NO. Dave does not have the "right" to change his mind. In fact, this is called lying through teeth... and deciding to BREAK RATIFIED "long-standing" CONTRACT LANGUAGE. PERIOD.
Let me say this and you can run (not walk) and tell management PITbull sent ya...
The only salvation for this management at this point (considering all this labor unrest with the busting of all of our contracts, inspite of all the sacrificing done by Labor) is to SELL THE DAMN AIRLINE. Cause if management thinks they can DECIDE to outsource work, SAY GOOD NIGHT AND LIGHTS OUT!
Seems to me more and more every single day that passes, this management and BOD must be looking to "sell" and get out,especially with the price of stock being bid up to $26 and it hasn't even hit the market. Something is at play here, cause you just do not treat ALL employees of a company this disrectful with no regard to honor contract language, and think you can operate an airline for profit.
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On 8/11/2003 12:39:43 PM AOG-N-IT wrote:
; Why should I get involved with something (The IAM or any Union) that I never wanted to be involved with to begin with? They Hi-jacked me into this mess remember? I had no vote on the subject of being represented by the IAM or Gengis Khan , Remember?...so for that , and the money they have somehow legally extorted from me along the way...I think I'm owed some resolve to my satisfaction... ....and then I'll feel good about paying for your services down the road. OK ? Buddy.
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if you're only paying $800.00 a year for union dues,don't tell anybody but they aren't taking that much from me....and our pay rates are real close.On 8/11/2003 12:39:43 PM AOG-N-IT wrote:
; Why should I get involved with something (The IAM or any Union) that I never wanted to be involved with to begin with? They Hi-jacked me into this mess remember? I had no vote on the subject of being represented by the IAM or Gengis Khan , Remember?...so for that , and the money they have somehow legally extorted from me along the way...I think I'm owed some resolve to my satisfaction... ....and then I'll feel good about paying for your services down the road. OK ? Buddy.
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if you do not wish to belong to our union,why don't you become an agency fee payor?most lack the stones to take this option out of fear of ridicule.
PITbull
Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 7,784
- Reaction score
- 456
Dell,
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or the IAM organization, but what AOG is trying to convey, and very eloquentely put, is that the IAM needs to "put the mouth where the money is" and he states this because as a dues paying member he is asking for his organization to be "steadfast" and committed. There is no utopic organization or company in that matter. But, the IAM needs to stick to their word, fight like hell to protect their work and their most precious language in their agreement; your agreement. All of you need to show unwaivering "solidarity" here; theres is much much strength in numbers.
Take courage.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or the IAM organization, but what AOG is trying to convey, and very eloquentely put, is that the IAM needs to "put the mouth where the money is" and he states this because as a dues paying member he is asking for his organization to be "steadfast" and committed. There is no utopic organization or company in that matter. But, the IAM needs to stick to their word, fight like hell to protect their work and their most precious language in their agreement; your agreement. All of you need to show unwaivering "solidarity" here; theres is much much strength in numbers.
Take courage.
----------------
On 8/11/2003 4:36:28 PM PITbull wrote:
Dell,
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or the IAM organization, but what AOG is trying to convey, and very eloquentely put, is that the IAM needs to "put the mouth where the money is" and he states this because as a dues paying member he is asking for his organization to be "steadfast" and committed. There is no utopic organization or company in that matter. But, the IAM needs to stick to their word, fight like hell to protect their work and their most precious language in their agreement; your agreement. All of you need to show unwaivering "solidarity" here; theres is much much strength in numbers.
Take courage.
----------------
Pitbull,On 8/11/2003 4:36:28 PM PITbull wrote:
Dell,
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or the IAM organization, but what AOG is trying to convey, and very eloquentely put, is that the IAM needs to "put the mouth where the money is" and he states this because as a dues paying member he is asking for his organization to be "steadfast" and committed. There is no utopic organization or company in that matter. But, the IAM needs to stick to their word, fight like hell to protect their work and their most precious language in their agreement; your agreement. All of you need to show unwaivering "solidarity" here; theres is much much strength in numbers.
Take courage.
----------------
Bless your heart for "Getting it"....it's kind of sad when two of the biggest IAM supporters (Delldude and Lavman) don't get where the hell I'm coming from...but a person from the AFA does. You summed up my rant very nicely...even with Dell on cutting and pasting the parts of my post that worked for him. Nice hack job Dell-Munn (LOL)
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On 8/11/2003 6:46:58 PM AOG-N-IT wrote:
Bless your heart for "Getting it"....it's kind of sad when two of the biggest IAM supporters (Delldude and Lavman) don't get where the hell I'm coming from...but a person from the AFA does. You summed up my rant very nicely...even with Dell on cutting and pasting the parts of my post that worked for him. Nice hack job Dell-Munn (LOL)
----------------
AOG -you are very outspoken and opinionated and inside informed,i respect that.... i must say from some of the things that you've related as to your selection as to union representaion leave me quite in the dark.....only one pick???? why's that??but relating all your misgivings kind of leaves me wondering....i also have lots of unanswered questions as to where my union stands and to where it plans to go....i am willing to see what they plan on doing as i've seen some things that say they are going to hear our gripes and try to effect change...to this point i will ,as i do with most people i meet...give them the benefit of doubt and the chance to sway me one way or the other.i can't say today whether AMFA is the right choice or not....i can't say today whether IAM has made all the right choices or not. but i am also aware of recent changes in the utmost hierachy of the IAM and it is for change on OUR level.until i see the results of these so called changes,i will reserve my judgement.i thank you for your response and keep it comming.On 8/11/2003 6:46:58 PM AOG-N-IT wrote:
----------------
On 8/11/2003 4:36:28 PM PITbull wrote:
Dell,
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or the IAM organization, but what AOG is trying to convey, and very eloquentely put, is that the IAM needs to "put the mouth where the money is" and he states this because as a dues paying member he is asking for his organization to be "steadfast" and committed. There is no utopic organization or company in that matter. But, the IAM needs to stick to their word, fight like hell to protect their work and their most precious language in their agreement; your agreement. All of you need to show unwaivering "solidarity" here; theres is much much strength in numbers.
Take courage.
----------------
Pitbull,On 8/11/2003 4:36:28 PM PITbull wrote:
Dell,
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or the IAM organization, but what AOG is trying to convey, and very eloquentely put, is that the IAM needs to "put the mouth where the money is" and he states this because as a dues paying member he is asking for his organization to be "steadfast" and committed. There is no utopic organization or company in that matter. But, the IAM needs to stick to their word, fight like hell to protect their work and their most precious language in their agreement; your agreement. All of you need to show unwaivering "solidarity" here; theres is much much strength in numbers.
Take courage.
----------------
Bless your heart for "Getting it"....it's kind of sad when two of the biggest IAM supporters (Delldude and Lavman) don't get where the hell I'm coming from...but a person from the AFA does. You summed up my rant very nicely...even with Dell on cutting and pasting the parts of my post that worked for him. Nice hack job Dell-Munn (LOL)
----------------
AOG, you can rant and rave all you want, five AGCs is not the union, every dues paying member is the union, those five AGCs are only as strong as the membership.
What have you done to help make a change? If you dont like the union, do what dell said and become a dues objector or better yet, quit or find another job in the company that is non-union and see how well Dave and his merry band of thieves will treat you.
Before when you were an employee at will the company could make any change to your working conditions, pay, benefits and fire you as they please without you even having a recourse. Ask yourself this, if you did not have a union what would the company have done to your group in the concessions, and if you honestly can say they would be fair, then I am just wasting my time and energy.
And yes I am gonna repeat to you for the 1,000,000 time, get of your buttocks and get involved, it is real easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at an organization or people and whine and cry, but it takes a real person to get off their duff and get involved and try to make things better. Think of all the people in the past who have sacrificed so that generations beyond them can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
If everyone had your attitude we would all be servents and be calling Dave, Master.
What have you done to help make a change? If you dont like the union, do what dell said and become a dues objector or better yet, quit or find another job in the company that is non-union and see how well Dave and his merry band of thieves will treat you.
Before when you were an employee at will the company could make any change to your working conditions, pay, benefits and fire you as they please without you even having a recourse. Ask yourself this, if you did not have a union what would the company have done to your group in the concessions, and if you honestly can say they would be fair, then I am just wasting my time and energy.
And yes I am gonna repeat to you for the 1,000,000 time, get of your buttocks and get involved, it is real easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at an organization or people and whine and cry, but it takes a real person to get off their duff and get involved and try to make things better. Think of all the people in the past who have sacrificed so that generations beyond them can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
If everyone had your attitude we would all be servents and be calling Dave, Master.
----------------
On 8/11/2003 11:28:47 PM LavMan wrote:
AOG, you can rant and rave all you want, five AGCs is not the union, every dues paying member is the union, those five AGCs are only as strong as the membership.
AOG-N-IT Replies...thank you flushmaster for allowing me to express myself freely
Lavman...that's the first democratic thing to come from anything that smacks of the IAM since I was "Shang Hai'ed into this boone-doggle against my expressed or implied will.
What have you done to help make a change? If you dont like the union, do what dell said and become a dues objector or better yet, quit or find another job in the company that is non-union and see how well Dave and his merry band of thieves will treat you.
AOG-N-IT replies...Gee are you daft or what?
I have said before that I have NO desire to get involved with changing anything that can abduct my money and my freedoms of sort , without me saying it's OK beforehand. I do elect to pay taxes by the way..and I do participate in politics to seek changes in other areas..I feel no need to do this at my job too. So do not draw a feeble comparison between taxes and union dues please...I might have to strike you silly (LOL)...or was I beaten to the draw on that taking place? (J/K)
The way the IAM treated my group is beyond shamefull...and the represenatation it has provided is beyond laughable when it's required..and laugh I would if it weren't for the prices I've paid for it personally for it.
Lavman If you had been in my shoes?..and been subjected to what I have ?....unless you are a complete dullard? , you would feel exactly the same way I do , that is if objective is something you can be?.
I like you, changed jobs in a lateral fashion to remain with what I enjoy being part of...but un-like you , I did not get to stay at my home station to remain...so spare me your bilge on sacrifice and silly cracks about whinning. You have no room for such talk by comparison.
In regards to quiting..or seeking another field to avoid the union...You can jump in the lake on that thought buckwheat. I'm going to stick like glue..and then watch mindless followers like you whine and moan when the IAM gets booted the heck out of our lives at some point , and I do hear the fat lady tuning up on that note.
Tell me Lavman ,Whatcha gonna do then? Whatcha gonna do when the AMFA is possibly only interested in reprsenting the licensed mechanics that remain? Where does this fit for those that don't exactly imbody what they claim to represent?
Before when you were an employee at will the company could make any change to your working conditions, pay, benefits and fire you as they please without you even having a recourse.
AOG-N-IT replies...I was hired as an at will employee..and being someone that does not need protection from anyone or anything...I was very much at ease with that...otherwise I would have never hired on with USAirways to begin with.
Ask yourself this, if you did not have a union what would the company have done to your group in the concessions, and if you honestly can say they would be fair, then I am just wasting my time and energy.
AOG-N-IT replies...had it not been for the union meddling in my career path. I would have not lost out on many things
(1) Two years worth of "Performance Based" raises for one
(2) A promotion to a Senior Position based on performance , attendance and all the other things that seperate good employees from those that have to duck behind the unions skirts when they fail to make muster.
(3) Regarding concessions We took losses in our department in only one respect. We lost three very talented people due to the union lumping job catagories into one basket. I had to take a bite just to fight my way back in based on senority only..merit means nothing...and that negates the individual which I find hard to handle...but then again I have always been a free thinking and speaking person. Try it sometime.
(4) Had I remained an at will employee during this? I would have taken the same bite as all the other MSP folks...and that I can live with...but I would not be paying for shoddy representation on top of it. The IAM made no changes in my income..except downward in all respects..so where's my incentive to work with this garbage?
(5) My quality of life also went into the proverbial toilet. Prior to the union I was working three days one week ...and four days the next. That's kinda rich digs for a single guy employed by an airline don'tcha think? Hard to get happy after you see what your union has cost me isn't it?
(6) I would have never been bumped to PIT without labor group consolidation , thanks to the IAM...and I would have never had to endure targeted selection to return to my job. Did you get bumped to PIT..did you have to interview to go from stores to dumping lavs? I'm willing to bet not !! So before you fire up the cut and paste propaganda machine again....it's best to realize that we all do not have the same issues that drive us.
And yes I am gonna repeat to you for the 1,000,000 time, get of your buttocks and get involved, it is real easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at an organization or people and whine and cry, but it takes a real person to get off their duff and get involved and try to make things better.
AOG-N-IT replies...Your slaps and childish attempts at insults do not even begin to phase me Lavman. I'm a free thinking , self directed kinda guy..so being involved with something that I view is on the way out has no merit , charm or reason to it. This is your union to correct....you hired in to be part of that system...I did not...so our reasoning and purposes in life...beyond the common goal to make an airline run are worlds apart. Hince we should just agree to dis-agree and move on.
Think of all the people in the past who have sacrificed so that generations beyond them can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
AOG-N-IT Replies...I think I did make mention of the lessons of the past..I think that I did make mention of real labor leaders whom were real men..and real fighters for thier cause. I do believe I made mention of hard chargers in union history like Jimmy Hoffa and John L. Lewis...the IAM's stance is but a ripple in the pond by comparison to what these folks were all about...and that's gonna be some small part of what it's going to take to win the war you wage with management.
I'm not defending Dave and Dave by any account..and damn it if you would have read with your eyes open and union trap shut...you would see where I'm questioning our leaderships ethics and integrity with almost the same energy as I do the IAM's
Too sum it up properly...I would rather use my energy to change USAirways for the betterment of us all...not just our particular work group. That's the kinda fight I'd be more eager to join...the IAM's fight is to retain "Our Work"...and fight for it's survival as a part of USAirways...and that my friend is where your robotics is either going to make it ? or break it?
If everyone had your attitude we would all be servents and be calling Dave, Master.
AOG-N-IT replies...and cracks that speak of racist glimpses of that past do exactly what for your arguement?
My attitude is a single focused one...Doing my part to make planes fly...make us profitable while doing so...and then hope like hell that more AMERICANS can be returned to the ranks of the employed based on those hopefull results...especially those formerly active with USAirways.
And your attitude beyond being that of a follower with an attached repeat button would be exactly what in the big scheme of things?
Lavman...we have had our last chat on this subject..because again , We are driven and motivated by different things...and seeing eye to eye is obviously not in the cards. I wish you all the best...because if I didn't ? I would be wishing ill on many more just like you in kind...and that's just not my nature
AOG-N-IT for the cause of truth and pursuit of happiness and prosperity.
On 8/11/2003 11:28:47 PM LavMan wrote:
AOG, you can rant and rave all you want, five AGCs is not the union, every dues paying member is the union, those five AGCs are only as strong as the membership.
AOG-N-IT Replies...thank you flushmaster for allowing me to express myself freely
Lavman...that's the first democratic thing to come from anything that smacks of the IAM since I was "Shang Hai'ed into this boone-doggle against my expressed or implied will.
What have you done to help make a change? If you dont like the union, do what dell said and become a dues objector or better yet, quit or find another job in the company that is non-union and see how well Dave and his merry band of thieves will treat you.
AOG-N-IT replies...Gee are you daft or what?
I have said before that I have NO desire to get involved with changing anything that can abduct my money and my freedoms of sort , without me saying it's OK beforehand. I do elect to pay taxes by the way..and I do participate in politics to seek changes in other areas..I feel no need to do this at my job too. So do not draw a feeble comparison between taxes and union dues please...I might have to strike you silly (LOL)...or was I beaten to the draw on that taking place? (J/K)
The way the IAM treated my group is beyond shamefull...and the represenatation it has provided is beyond laughable when it's required..and laugh I would if it weren't for the prices I've paid for it personally for it.
Lavman If you had been in my shoes?..and been subjected to what I have ?....unless you are a complete dullard? , you would feel exactly the same way I do , that is if objective is something you can be?.
I like you, changed jobs in a lateral fashion to remain with what I enjoy being part of...but un-like you , I did not get to stay at my home station to remain...so spare me your bilge on sacrifice and silly cracks about whinning. You have no room for such talk by comparison.
In regards to quiting..or seeking another field to avoid the union...You can jump in the lake on that thought buckwheat. I'm going to stick like glue..and then watch mindless followers like you whine and moan when the IAM gets booted the heck out of our lives at some point , and I do hear the fat lady tuning up on that note.
Tell me Lavman ,Whatcha gonna do then? Whatcha gonna do when the AMFA is possibly only interested in reprsenting the licensed mechanics that remain? Where does this fit for those that don't exactly imbody what they claim to represent?
Before when you were an employee at will the company could make any change to your working conditions, pay, benefits and fire you as they please without you even having a recourse.
AOG-N-IT replies...I was hired as an at will employee..and being someone that does not need protection from anyone or anything...I was very much at ease with that...otherwise I would have never hired on with USAirways to begin with.
Ask yourself this, if you did not have a union what would the company have done to your group in the concessions, and if you honestly can say they would be fair, then I am just wasting my time and energy.
AOG-N-IT replies...had it not been for the union meddling in my career path. I would have not lost out on many things
(1) Two years worth of "Performance Based" raises for one
(2) A promotion to a Senior Position based on performance , attendance and all the other things that seperate good employees from those that have to duck behind the unions skirts when they fail to make muster.
(3) Regarding concessions We took losses in our department in only one respect. We lost three very talented people due to the union lumping job catagories into one basket. I had to take a bite just to fight my way back in based on senority only..merit means nothing...and that negates the individual which I find hard to handle...but then again I have always been a free thinking and speaking person. Try it sometime.
(4) Had I remained an at will employee during this? I would have taken the same bite as all the other MSP folks...and that I can live with...but I would not be paying for shoddy representation on top of it. The IAM made no changes in my income..except downward in all respects..so where's my incentive to work with this garbage?
(5) My quality of life also went into the proverbial toilet. Prior to the union I was working three days one week ...and four days the next. That's kinda rich digs for a single guy employed by an airline don'tcha think? Hard to get happy after you see what your union has cost me isn't it?
(6) I would have never been bumped to PIT without labor group consolidation , thanks to the IAM...and I would have never had to endure targeted selection to return to my job. Did you get bumped to PIT..did you have to interview to go from stores to dumping lavs? I'm willing to bet not !! So before you fire up the cut and paste propaganda machine again....it's best to realize that we all do not have the same issues that drive us.
And yes I am gonna repeat to you for the 1,000,000 time, get of your buttocks and get involved, it is real easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones at an organization or people and whine and cry, but it takes a real person to get off their duff and get involved and try to make things better.
AOG-N-IT replies...Your slaps and childish attempts at insults do not even begin to phase me Lavman. I'm a free thinking , self directed kinda guy..so being involved with something that I view is on the way out has no merit , charm or reason to it. This is your union to correct....you hired in to be part of that system...I did not...so our reasoning and purposes in life...beyond the common goal to make an airline run are worlds apart. Hince we should just agree to dis-agree and move on.
Think of all the people in the past who have sacrificed so that generations beyond them can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
AOG-N-IT Replies...I think I did make mention of the lessons of the past..I think that I did make mention of real labor leaders whom were real men..and real fighters for thier cause. I do believe I made mention of hard chargers in union history like Jimmy Hoffa and John L. Lewis...the IAM's stance is but a ripple in the pond by comparison to what these folks were all about...and that's gonna be some small part of what it's going to take to win the war you wage with management.
I'm not defending Dave and Dave by any account..and damn it if you would have read with your eyes open and union trap shut...you would see where I'm questioning our leaderships ethics and integrity with almost the same energy as I do the IAM's
Too sum it up properly...I would rather use my energy to change USAirways for the betterment of us all...not just our particular work group. That's the kinda fight I'd be more eager to join...the IAM's fight is to retain "Our Work"...and fight for it's survival as a part of USAirways...and that my friend is where your robotics is either going to make it ? or break it?
If everyone had your attitude we would all be servents and be calling Dave, Master.
AOG-N-IT replies...and cracks that speak of racist glimpses of that past do exactly what for your arguement?
My attitude is a single focused one...Doing my part to make planes fly...make us profitable while doing so...and then hope like hell that more AMERICANS can be returned to the ranks of the employed based on those hopefull results...especially those formerly active with USAirways.
And your attitude beyond being that of a follower with an attached repeat button would be exactly what in the big scheme of things?
Lavman...we have had our last chat on this subject..because again , We are driven and motivated by different things...and seeing eye to eye is obviously not in the cards. I wish you all the best...because if I didn't ? I would be wishing ill on many more just like you in kind...and that's just not my nature
AOG-N-IT for the cause of truth and pursuit of happiness and prosperity.
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