AFA Labor Relations thread 6/17-

[MAAMARCH04]

It is not just that I am being displaced that has upset me. It is that the company could have and should have put out the numbers for the FA group so that those that wanted to move to CLT to hold a line could have instead of sitting reserve in PHL. It is the flip-flopping the company did in not knowing how many positions were needed. It is that nothing in the contract stopped the company or the union for telling the most junior of the junior that were moving out of their closed bases that they might not be able to hold PHL or DCA due to this possibility and they could have used caution in placing deposits and signing leases. It is the total lack of respect time-after-time, on top of being displaced.

Additionally, why in the world would this company allow people to transfer into PHL in March, April and May and then displace 89 F/As out of PHL a few months later? I'll answer that.....incompetence and a complete lack of empathy for it's employees. :angry:

 

[Onestep2flt]

The company moved the time. PILOT TIME! ! ! !

The "ME TOO" screws us along with the company and their way of doing things. They couldn't care any less about the poor employee and their financial hardship. Oh and and take it for what it's worth but the union is claiming they have already negotiated better language than what we currently have in many parts of the "ME-TOO".

I do not go through what you go through everyday dealing with your company as well as some pesky customers, so it difficult for me to put myself in your shoes. I will not argue with you for your passion and desire to get a better contract and to have you feel your worth from the company that employs you.

That being said, the company made a business decision right or wrong to shift some "time" to a different base. That decision was not made by the pilots. I would suspect just like flight attendants their are some pilots that will perhaps be displaced by the process as well. I don't know for sure. What I do know is that from what I have been made to understand is that since the "time" is being shifted there would still be a need for displacements regardless of your co-pairing or any me-too language. There might have been fewer due to a fact that on paper any flight attendant overnighting in a particular place can cover flying that originates in a base. The reality is that it would seem that you would need an awful lot of people overnighting in the place where all the "time" originates from. I do not pretend to know how staffing is determined for the time that is flown. Lets add say 30 flights to your schedule then use an airplane that requires three flight attendants to cover the new flying time. That is 90 not including any "Spares". Just looking at it from that perspective it appears that regardless of your me-too or co-pairing there would still be some displacements.

I don't know all your contract language. I have read bits and pieces that my friends show me to see what my take is. It appears to me that the me-too stuff covers areas that give you improvement if another crew member (pilot in this case) receives something with more favorable terms. I am not so sure that this is so bad. The problem is the weak language that is all over your contract. Another words, it can be a very useful tool if your contract had protection provisions. Something like, if another crew member gets something better than what you have it goes to you. However, if your language is stronger you would stay status-quo with what you already have.

I also think some people are confusing co-pairing with the me-too provisions. I don't believe them to be mutually exclusive. You can fly seperate and still have me-too if you negotiate it. Let's say you negotiate that you will only stay at three star hotels. Sounds good because you know it will be clean and safe. What if the pilots negotiated to stay at only five star hotels half way through your contract period. Your three star place just became a dump. If you don't have a me-too you are stuck without any improvement for the life of your contract. If you have a well crafted me-too you could reap the benefit of a better hotel. If say, for what ever reason the pilots gave a concession for a two star a well crafted me-too would say no thanks we will stay with our three star. The problem with your contract is the very poorly crafted wording.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't have tunnel vision on your me-too has got to go. It is your poorly crafted language that should go. It is a negotiating team that does not have every flight attendants best interests in mind while negotiating your contract. It is having a management team that can't decide what kind of airline you are going to be. Philly is Mecca, oh I mean Charlotte. Pittsburgh is making money, no it's not. US proudly begins a new non-stop from Charlotte to Hawaii via a quick detour to cooperate headquarters.

Anyway, your heart is in the right place, and I might be totally wrong on the displacement issue. I still believe that no matter how you slice it, there were still going to be some displacements involved.

 

[Travelpro72]

No it still comes down to the "me-too". With the time moved from PHL to CLT the trip will start and end there for the pilots. Ya see, currently flight attendant pairings are built to mirror the pilots. They ARE the pilots pairings. If the flight attendants had their lines built seperately that same trip that STARTS for the pilots could very well be day 2 of the flight attendants pairings etc. There would be no reason for the pilots and f/a's to have to start and end trips together. Therefore the f/a's would NOT have to be pulled from a base. The company for all they care would have the warm bodies in base to cover those flights in and out. So it does come down to the "me-too" clause and being paired. The time moved was Pilot time so the f/a's go along unwillingly.

 

[flygirl74]

No it still comes down to the "me-too". With the time moved from PHL to CLT the trip will start and end there for the pilots. Ya see, currently flight attendant pairings are built to mirror the pilots. They ARE the pilots pairings. If the flight attendants had their lines built seperately that same trip that STARTS for the pilots could very well be day 2 of the flight attendants pairings etc. There would be no reason for the pilots and f/a's to have to start and end trips together. Therefore the f/a's would NOT have to be pulled from a base. The company for all they care would have the warm bodies in base to cover those flights in and out. So it does come down to the "me-too" clause and being paired. The time moved was Pilot time so the f/a's go along unwillingly.

If we separate from the pilots and build our own lines, they likely will have more hours and be more productive. And that would mean the company wouldn't need as many emplyees. Either way, someone is gonna get screwed.

 

[Zarah]

If we separate from the pilots and build our own lines, they likely will have more hours and be more productive. And that would mean the company wouldn't need as many emplyees. Either way, someone is gonna get screwed.

I would love to see more hours and more productive pairings along with growth. Then everybody wins. To keep chugging along with the same-old-same-old is just not working.

 

[ebwgs]

I would love to see more hours and more productive pairings along with growth. Then everybody wins. To keep chugging along with the same-old-same-old is just not working.

Amen to both flygirl and Zarah

 

[Onestep2flt]

No it still comes down to the "me-too". With the time moved from PHL to CLT the trip will start and end there for the pilots. Ya see, currently flight attendant pairings are built to mirror the pilots. They ARE the pilots pairings.

I understand exactly what you are saying. The point that I was trying to get at was that there IS a difference between me-too language and co-pairing. I will even go as far as saying that as constructed today they may indeed be the cause of some of your issues. This is a product of poorly crafted language. Me-too language is not exclusive to airlines. If crafted with care it can be a most beneficial thing. Basically you are stating if another work group gets something better in their contract then you reap the benefit also. If they take a concession on something you stay status-quo and enforce the language in your own contract. Again, depending on ho worded you would not be required to co-pair to have me-too provisions in your contract. The problem is squarely on poorly written language.

As written you are flying trips based on pilot pairings. I get that. Also, you are right that you could be just a warm body on a plane day two of a pilot trip. I understand that too. You are being more "productive" and you don't necessarily need to be in the same base. However, your airplanes originate from somewhere. Those planes need flight attendants. While they can be covered by people on overnights it would not be very cost effective for the company. Again, I am not the airline expert but do no a little about logistics. You would have to have a lot of overnighting flight attendants in place where aircraft originate or you need some people based where the airplane is. Your company (in theory) Will do what makes the most since from an economical standpoint. So, even though your ratio of flight attendants in the base may be smaller if you were not co-pairing you still need the largest percentage where the aircraft begin the day. If you look at airlines that don't co-pair the case is still the same. Even though there are some separate crew bases for flight attendants and pilots the largest percentage of flight attendants are based where the airplanes start the day. That incidentally is going to be where most of the pilots start their trips as well. Some of your displacements appear to be the result of trips that are not even built off of pilot pairings. My friends in the know tell me that you are loosing most all of those trips you call "extra pairings". These, from my limited knowledge are not based on any pilot pairing, but rather you are following an aircraft that requires a larger minimum flight attendant crew.

I am not trying to defend your me-too provisions in your contract as they currently exist. You make some very valid arguments. A goal I have is for you to look at the contract as a whole and not to get singularly focused on one issue. It is the construction of your me-too's that you should have the beef with. Mine, for the sake of my friends that have to live under it is the way the whole contract has been constructed, implemented, and enforced.

One other point to make that actually was just made in a post above is the unintended consequence. If say you did separate from the pilots there could be pairings made with more time and thus increase productivity. This can be good if there is steady growth and hiring is taking place. The problem is no growth and more potential productivity leads to less numbers of flight attendants needed. I would be very carefully watching how things unfold. Make sure that any language in a tentative agreement addresses these issues. A lot of the arguments on this board are from the more "Junior" people. You are the very one's that will be the most affected if you do not get involved now. You need to be calling your reserve chair and asking what you can do to make your negotiating team actually consider reserves ideas in the new contract. Things that would benefit all flight attendants. Otherwise MR. Flores will continue to craft language that only benefits his inner circle. He will continue to say that the block holders won't go for this or that. Keep reminding him he must represent all the flight attendants.

Your me-too language is just a small portion of the unjustices of your current contract. Keep focused on the whole pot. Be as renlentless with your "leaders" about everything in your contract!

 

[Travelpro72]

Ok with the trip having to begin somewhere, namely CLT you believe crews would have to be in position with said aircraft correct? Well considering the overnighting would be extensive for PHL f/a's to begin the trip in CLT just look at the pairings for CLT based f/a's. The pairings for the 757 and many airbus trips are 4 day trips with PHL, PHL, PHL overnights. Same goes for CLT 3day trips. So ya see the company is overnighting TONS of f/a's who are CLT based in PHL with this shift. It is a direct result of the "me-too". Nothing more. I appreciate any input on trying to find other reasoning behind the f/a's being affected. It is simply "me-too". I understand there is more to the "me-too" but this displacement and shift of flying is pilot time which the f/a's lines are built off of.

 

[Al Legheny]

Ok with the trip having to begin somewhere, namely CLT you believe crews would have to be in position with said aircraft correct? Well considering the overnighting would be extensive for PHL f/a's to begin the trip in CLT just look at the pairings for CLT based f/a's. The pairings for the 757 and many airbus trips are 4 day trips with PHL, PHL, PHL overnights. Same goes for CLT 3day trips. So ya see the company is overnighting TONS of f/a's who are CLT based in PHL with this shift. It is a direct result of the "me-too". Nothing more. I appreciate any input on trying to find other reasoning behind the f/a's being affected. It is simply "me-too". I understand there is more to the "me-too" but this displacement and shift of flying is pilot time which the f/a's lines are built off of.

I am not sure that the statement ..."It is a diect result of the "mee-too", is correct. The fact is that the entire airline is out of position. Please consider the following actions that the compmany has taken this past year. The closure of LGA and BOS. The anticipation of the sale of gates and slots in LGA and DCA to Delta which is now abondoned.

The bids that we are flying now are the result of what the company "thought" it was going to be doing with the sale and re-alingment of flying. The re-alingment is not necessary because the Slot sale is not happening. We now have lots of flight crews both "front end" and "rear end" out of position. I personally have been in two complete pilot initial groundschools and sim training in the last 5 months. This takes six weeks. My sim partner was a B767 F/O in PHL. He was displaced to the PHL AB320. While we were in school on the September bid he is re-capturing the B767. The company left him in Airbus school but he will only fly the line for a few weeks and then go back to school.

The Charlotte training center is full of displaced people from LGA and BOS and many had had their bids change as a result of the latest bid for Sept. The company has flat out screwed up and we have people out of position all over the east system. This is why there are so many extra trips in PHL. It is easier for the company to use extras then to try to republish bids seval months in advance. We are all out of place because the anticpated flying realingment has not hppened as planned.

I am not a scheduling guru but I know a few people who are. They say the above issues are the primary drivers and additionally East scheduling is now being handled by West scheduling "experts". Several months ago the West took over and the trip sheets for bidding were all messed up. They are on a very steep learning curve and IMHO they are falling behind. The "mee-too" clause has been here forever, why is all this stuff changing now? Why are the schedule and lines all messed up now? What has changed? The "mee-too" clause hasent changed but the company actions have.

The flight attendant group may decide to give up the mee too clause in the future.... It is not causing the problems now though. The company is doing that all by themselves.

 

[StewGuy86]

FYI, the latest E-Line from AFA addresses the rumors of FA recalls from the Voluntary Furlough EXL list (Extended Furlough...these are the ones that come back with full seniority for bidding and pass riding privileges) and gives some specific numbers for how many FAs are currently on that list. I'll hit the high points for you here in case you don't care to go to the AFA website.

Total number on the EXL: 430
By base the numbers are:
PHL - 255
CLT - 129
DCA - 46

The total number from this group used to be over 1100 and continues to shrink, and seniority dates on this list range from 1973 to 1997. The message states that while there has been nothing said officially, preliminary statistics from Crew Planning indicate there MAY be a need to recall FAs.

 

[ebwgs]

I am not sure that the statement ..."It is a diect result of the "mee-too", is correct. The fact is that the entire airline is out of position. Please consider the following actions that the compmany has taken this past year. The closure of LGA and BOS. The anticipation of the sale of gates and slots in LGA and DCA to Delta which is now abondoned.

The bids that we are flying now are the result of what the company "thought" it was going to be doing with the sale and re-alingment of flying. The re-alingment is not necessary because the Slot sale is not happening. We now have lots of flight crews both "front end" and "rear end" out of position. I personally have been in two complete pilot initial groundschools and sim training in the last 5 months. This takes six weeks. My sim partner was a B767 F/O in PHL. He was displaced to the PHL AB320. While we were in school on the September bid he is re-capturing the B767. The company left him in Airbus school but he will only fly the line for a few weeks and then go back to school.

The Charlotte training center is full of displaced people from LGA and BOS and many had had their bids change as a result of the latest bid for Sept. The company has flat out screwed up and we have people out of position all over the east system. This is why there are so many extra trips in PHL. It is easier for the company to use extras then to try to republish bids seval months in advance. We are all out of place because the anticpated flying realingment has not hppened as planned.

I am not a scheduling guru but I know a few people who are. They say the above issues are the primary drivers and additionally East scheduling is now being handled by West scheduling "experts". Several months ago the West took over and the trip sheets for bidding were all messed up. They are on a very steep learning curve and IMHO they are falling behind. The "mee-too" clause has been here forever, why is all this stuff changing now? Why are the schedule and lines all messed up now? What has changed? The "mee-too" clause hasent changed but the company actions have.

The flight attendant group may decide to give up the mee too clause in the future.... It is not causing the problems now though. The company is doing that all by themselves.

Good information.

 

[AstroLounge]

I am not sure that the statement ..."It is a diect result of the "mee-too", is correct. The fact is that the entire airline is out of position. Please consider the following actions that the compmany has taken this past year. The closure of LGA and BOS. The anticipation of the sale of gates and slots in LGA and DCA to Delta which is now abondoned.

The bids that we are flying now are the result of what the company "thought" it was going to be doing with the sale and re-alingment of flying. The re-alingment is not necessary because the Slot sale is not happening. We now have lots of flight crews both "front end" and "rear end" out of position. I personally have been in two complete pilot initial groundschools and sim training in the last 5 months. This takes six weeks. My sim partner was a B767 F/O in PHL. He was displaced to the PHL AB320. While we were in school on the September bid he is re-capturing the B767. The company left him in Airbus school but he will only fly the line for a few weeks and then go back to school.

The Charlotte training center is full of displaced people from LGA and BOS and many had had their bids change as a result of the latest bid for Sept. The company has flat out screwed up and we have people out of position all over the east system. This is why there are so many extra trips in PHL. It is easier for the company to use extras then to try to republish bids seval months in advance. We are all out of place because the anticpated flying realingment has not hppened as planned.

I am not a scheduling guru but I know a few people who are. They say the above issues are the primary drivers and additionally East scheduling is now being handled by West scheduling "experts". Several months ago the West took over and the trip sheets for bidding were all messed up. They are on a very steep learning curve and IMHO they are falling behind. The "mee-too" clause has been here forever, why is all this stuff changing now? Why are the schedule and lines all messed up now? What has changed? The "mee-too" clause hasent changed but the company actions have.

The flight attendant group may decide to give up the mee too clause in the future.... It is not causing the problems now though. The company is doing that all by themselves.

Sounds like the Circus Clowns are 'trying' to RUN an airline.

 

[Travelpro72]

Thank you. All of that is GREAT information. With that said the flight attendant lines or "blocks" are still created to mirror the pilots. Even with the airline shifting pilots all around from left seat to right seat and base to base due to TWO closures the flights are still operating in and out of Philadelphia. The time for pilots has shifted and the flight attendants time falls when the aircraft type time falls in that base. That again is a DIRECT result of being co-paired with the pilots. The company has created the problem they have as far as pilots due to closing BOS and LGA so close in time to each other. They didn't think things through as usual so no shocker there.

 

[FlyUs]

If it weren't for the Me-toos, the flight attendants would probably still have a base in Boston. It's much cheaper to base only the flight attendants. Delta, United and pre-merger Northwest all maintained flight attendant only crew bases in Boston

 

[flybynite]

Thank you. All of that is GREAT information. With that said the flight attendant lines or "blocks" are still created to mirror the pilots. Even with the airline shifting pilots all around from left seat to right seat and base to base due to TWO closures the flights are still operating in and out of Philadelphia. The time for pilots has shifted and the flight attendants time falls when the aircraft type time falls in that base. That again is a DIRECT result of being co-paired with the pilots. The company has created the problem they have as far as pilots due to closing BOS and LGA so close in time to each other. They didn't think things through as usual so no shocker there.

The first thing you need to get under your hat is....the sun does not rise and shine in Philadelphia. And apparently Tempe thinks the same way too.

The next thing you need to get a handle on is......maybe it's for the best. Oh shock!!! Now you can cuss me to the cows come home but it's been coming for a while now. Hell and fire...the PIT closure was a given and everyone was stunned. The only stunning thing was it was there as long as it was. Hell, Teddy knew it was history. Years ago.

Now having said that....I welcome all new transfers. We will work well together. We will help you find safe and secure homes.

If you need help...PM me.