AAA ALPA Topic 8/24/07 - 8/31-07

[AAA73Pilot]

The US Airways Pilots back in 1992 scabbed against the IAM.

They cut a secret deal to not honor the picket line and every pilot would get paid if their trip cancelled.

The company grounded the DC9s, MD-80s, F28s, F100s and some 737-200s, EVERY pilot got paid.

They also during the 30 day cooling off period and during the stike cleaned planes, jobs that the IAM Represented Utility has the exclusive scope language to peform.

I personally filed at least 100 grievances against pilots during the 30 day cooling off period for cleaning planes.

While walking the picket lines our members reported numerous harassments incidents of US Pilots talking garbage to our picketers.

I guess ALPA forgets what happened in October of 1992.

At least it took a Federal Judge to order our AFA represented FAs not to honor the picket line as they tried.

So who is calling whom a scab?

Secret deals? As an ALPA member in good standing at the time I never heard of this. Would like proof. If you can prove it, it just makes for another issue to dump ALPA. We were ordered to work as I recall. Our concessionary contract at the time was just ratified by the MEC, anybody remember how the vote went? I don't remember even being given the opportunity to vote. What I do remember is the value of the concessions were eaten up by the strike. So the company actually gained nothing.

I also remember ALPA saying they wouldn't support a pilot individually for honoring the picket line. So please, don't call all pilots a scab for the failure of ALPA's public position at the time. Just another issue and reason to dump ALPA.

BTW. I didn't fly during that time as I was out on a medical for the 6 weeks that covered the strike.

Later Prater

 

[traderjake]

Pathetic? yes it is. It's been pathetic for many years here, before you were even thought of. Your temper tantrum on not being able to cash a winning ticket is also pathetic.

What's pathetic is how my East coworkers believe not stealing a West Captain's job is a winning lottery ticket.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

What's pathetic is how my East coworkers believe not stealing a West Captain's job is a winning lottery ticket.

I'll post more of my original response so this reply can be taken in context.


I also know what binding means and what policy means. What is pathetic, is policies in one binding merger have become guidelines in another (this) binding merger. Too bad you only hear about the change after the fact.

Most people on this property used to think that ALPA Constitution and ByLaws stood for something. Something tangible, something you can count on as a foundation for solving problems and promoting unity. I wonder what other policies of the ByLaws are really guidelines that we haven't heard about yet? So yes it's pathetic it has come to this.

I'll add this, I think it's time to remove ALPA from the property and draft a Constitution and ByLaws for a union that supports its pilots only. Not offer "guidelines" in one case and policy in another.

So if you want to debate the issue, there are better threads to do so.

 

[USA320Pilot]

I do not favor an East or a West pilot taking the other pilots job.

The purpose of ALPA merger policy is to maintain pre-merger career expectation, which was clearly not done. For example, I know of one pilot whose career expectation was to fly the A330 and retire about number 40 who now will never fly at widebody and retire number 700. Why? The Nicolau Award gives the A330 widebody flying to West pilots who never had widebody flying in their career expectation. In my opinion, that is a windfall and not morally right.

Also noteworthy, it does not matter who was in bankruptcy or who would have gone into bankruptcy if the merger did not proceed. The only thing that matters is that both companies were operating and as long as they were operating each pilot had a career expectation that George Nicolau failed to maintain.

I continue to believe the only way out of this mess and to keep ALPA on the property is to negotiate an agreement where the West pilots keep all of their current flying West of the Mississippi River and the East pilots keep all of their flying East of the Mississippi River.

I believe a solution to the problem is to negotiate fences for 10 to 15 years (after all at NWA-Republic they were for 20 years), which would protect each others flying, negotiate furlough protection similar to the protection the Empire Pilots received after the Piedmont-Empire merger where the Empire pilots use their original DOH during a furlough verses the new seniority number they were given from the arbitrator), and then the pilots could negotiate a new contract that would provide pay raises for both East and West pilots.

If an agreement is not negotiated similar to the one above then the East lawsuit will proceed that could tie up the process for 3-5 years and ALPA will likely be “kicked offâ€￾ of the US Airways and AWA property and replaced by USAPA. If that occurs then a whole new dynamic will occur, which will delay the process and obtaining a new contract for a long time.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Junebug172]

I believe a solution to the problem is to negotiate fences for 10 to 15 years...

Regards,

USA320Pilot

That "solution" should have come up during negotiations. Instead you easties gambled everything on DOH.

You didn't get that and now you want to take a mulligan and start negotiating now.

Welp, too late.

 

[P51Pilot]

I believe a solution to the problem is to negotiate fences for 10 to 15 years (after all at NWA-Republic they were for 20 years),
Regards,

USA320Pilot

You do realize our youngest pilots are in their 30's and if we fenced for everyone, and let's not forget their worth is no less than anyone else's, it would be fences in the neighborhood of 25 to 30 years.

 

[700UW]

So USA320 thinks no AWA Pilot should be flying a widebody.

Since you are original US Air, you should not be flying widebodies either, as the 767s were Piedmont Orders and Airpanes, same goes for the PSA Pilots too if you use your wierd method of reasoning.

ALPA, cut a secret deal, every pilot was paid, the company did not have to pay anyone not flying as they were not required too due to a strike.

The IAM Performed work at NWA that was covered in the IAM/NWA Fleet Service Agreement.

 

[PA18]

US Airways ALPA LGA Council 135 Update - August 26, 2007

To the LGA Pilots,


...Under LOA 93, AAA pilots complete up to 16 hours of distance learning with no compensation and then additional training is compensated at 25% of the pilot's applicable rate. The AAA pilots just keep shouldering the US Airways profitability burden so the rich get richer...

Have you had enough?

I have!

Don Iorio
LGA 135 Captain Rep

The almost laughable irony here is that the poster was one of the most vocal proponents of voting Yes on LOA 93. He and many others, including people who still hold high ALPA office, ran around like Chicken Little, hysterically screaming, "The sky is falling! Hurry up and let me vote Yes on whatever the company wants!" (These pilots were referred to as "pants-wetters" by the more rational minority of East pilots.)

And the LGA base, although under different LEC leadership at that time, has traditionally been one of the most weak-kneed group during difficult times.

You can always tell a "pants-wetter" by their incessant, to this day, attacks on the so-called RC4. Those PIT and PHL reps were the ones who had the intestinal fortitude (and bladder control) to attempt to save the East pilots from themselves, and the same LOA 93 that is now so unacceptable to them, only three years after they were shamelessly shilling for its passage.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You do realize our youngest pilots are in their 30's and if we fenced for everyone, and let's not forget their worth is no less than anyone else's, it would be fences in the neighborhood of 25 to 30 years.

Well, yes. I do realize that. But, SO WHAT? The fences will allow them to capture all west attrition and expansion of flying unimpeded by east pilots. With fences and agreements for eqitable sharing of additional flying, what is the problem?

Or, is the problem that fences (even 15 year fences) will not allow those young westies to capture the EAST attrition which is the lottery windfall that they now expect?

 

[nycbusdriver]

The almost laughable irony here is that the poster was one of the most vocal proponents of voting Yes on LOA 93. He and many others, including people who still hold high ALPA office, ran around like Chicken Little, hysterically screaming, "The sky is falling! Hurry up and let me vote Yes on whatever the company wants!" (These pilots were referred to as "pants-wetters" by the more rational minority of East pilots.)

And the LGA base, although under different LEC leadership at that time, has traditionally been one of the most weak-kneed group during difficult times.

You can always tell a "pants-wetter" by their incessant, to this day, attacks on the so-called RC4. Those PIT and PHL reps were the ones who had the intestinal fortitude (and bladder control) to attempt to save the East pilots from themselves, and the same LOA 93 that is now so unacceptable to them, only three years after they were shamelessly shilling for its passage.

Regarding USA320pilot (not Don Iorio, the LGA Capt rep, whom he quotes):

I agree. He's reaping exactly what he sowed over the past 6 years, and now he's whining abou it.

But the story is even worse than you state. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, he was on every message board and forum that he could find pleading with the pilot group to take an immediate 10% paycut. The company had not even mentioned concessions yet, but he was running around trying to renegotiate payrates downward. What a piece of work.

 

[pilot]

I'll say it again. 320 would be promoting the list as fair had he been in the 500 guys who did get date of hire. His ox got gored and now he's trying to save his ass, not any other pilot's ass, his.

He absolutely is reaping what he and his boys have sown by not standing up for the profession and capitulating to an incompetent and opportunistic management who knew exactly the type of backbone he and his fellow GAG'rs had. Now those guys are clamoring and huffing and puffing because, apparently, seniority is where they draw the line.

At least they have drawn a line. Or have they? Because one can never be sure of a man who has no backbone or character and is interested in only himself. Like the first pilots hired at AWA. The scabs.

I welcome the GAG'rs to the fight. But I am watching my backside because these guys will sell out in a New York minute once threats are made and ultimatums are issued. The real question is just how many of these cowards have grown a set of balls and how many are still pansies. Only one way to find out.

And we are going to find out. Sooner or later.

pilot

 

[hp_fa]

I do not favor an East or a West pilot taking the other pilots job.

The purpose of ALPA merger policy is to maintain pre-merger career expectation,

OK, that seems factual.

which was clearly not done.

How so? What were you career expectations in mid-May, 2005?

 

[BoeingBoy]

OK, that seems factual.

Actually, it's got some spin on it......it is USA320 after all......

One of the 5 goals (notice it was never a "policy") is to "Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations". The word "Maintain" isn't there.

Of course, there are 4 other goals, none more important than any other. The merger committee are supposed to, through negotiations, balance those 5 goals while seeking the best compromise among all 5.

Jim

 

[P51Pilot]

Well, yes. I do realize that. But, SO WHAT? The fences will allow them to capture all west attrition and expansion of flying unimpeded by east pilots. With fences and agreements for eqitable sharing of additional flying, what is the problem?

Or, is the problem that fences (even 15 year fences) will not allow those young westies to capture the EAST attrition which is the lottery windfall that they now expect?

We have East pilots in their 30's, do we not protect them with 30 year fences? Or do we stop at 15 and only protect some of the East pilots? If its good for one, shouldn't it be good for all. I won't support pulling the ladder up on anyone.

 

[P51Pilot]

Actually, it's got some spin on it......it is USA320 after all......

One of the 5 goals (notice it was never a "policy") is to "Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations". The word "Maintain" isn't there.

Of course, there are 4 other goals, none more important than any other. The merger committee are supposed to, through negotiations, balance those 5 goals while seeking the best compromise among all 5.

Jim

Since it isn't policy, the part that remands it to arbitration is just a guideline too?