AAA ALPA Topic 8/24/07 - 8/31-07

[Barberpole]

I was told by A&W management (CP office) that quite a bit of the entire entry classes at A&W were, for the most part, composed of scabs, which, of course, begs your ignorance, forgivable since you are likely very inexperienced.

You are correct a large portion of our initial hires were former scabs. I have access to the master scab list. I counted 39 scabs that are currently working at AWA. 39 out of 1800 equals about 2%. For arguments sake lets double that figure and we get to 4%. I believe BAJABABE or whatever she calls herself said "most of you (AWA) are scabs." I'm not sure how 4% equals MOST?

By the way there were more scabs listed for NWA and vastly more for UAL and CAL than there were at AWA. Your statements are typical of the vitriolic postings on this board from east pilots. Long on anger and emotion and short on facts.

Eventually you are going to have to share a cockpit with west crewmembers. You might as well stop embarrassing yourself with half truths and slanderous statements.

 

[P51Pilot]

Barberpole,

Not really wanting to pick a side in this, however I'm thinking you and your colleagues might do well to observe the current IAM Ramp vote and what can possibly happen to YOU as a west pilot if the Nicolau Award is not altered and a suitable alternative reached. You are in a position of having won a major battle but in doing so end up losing the war.

If a vote occurs and the East Pilots stand together in percentages similar to the rampers, you guys are toast. You'll end up in whatever union the East pilots desire and nothing you can do about it. Conversely the East pilots shouldn't be to smug and arrogant just yet as the West pilots and ALPA can tie this thing up in court for YEARS if not DECADES,

All the while this goes on your careers will be with the lowest paying major airline if it survives. Ever stop to think that all of your turmoil and angst could force the sale of US Airways to another carrier and the whole blessed lot of you end up stapled to the bottom of a very long list?

I don't happen to think either group is demonstrating much forward thinking here. EVERY DAY you are bickering is a day that Doug Parker gets away with paying you less then you deserve. That ladies & gentlemen is stupid.

You know if there was a sale prior to the merger of the pilot groups and the airlines were spun off from each other as part of the transaction, each would be left to their own contract and the Nicalou award would be toast. Just maybe if the Pilots follow the example of the Ramp workers, the writing on the wall of getting this airline together will be seen by management and all can go there merry way.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than be able to turn back the hands of time and not merge with US Airways. I'd rather take my chance with AWA, even with a BK filing, then to have to deal with this mess. And the east, well, you would all be gone and not suffering through the travesty of the Nicolau list...oh the horror.

You know if there was a sale prior to the merger of the pilot groups and the airlines were spun off from each other as part of the transaction, each would be left to their own contract and the Nicalou award would be toast. Just maybe if the Pilots follow the example of the Ramp workers, the writing on the wall of getting this airline together will be seen by management and all can go there merry way.

 

[sharktooth]

You are correct a large portion of our initial hires were former scabs. I have access to the master scab list. I counted 39 scabs that are currently working at AWA. 39 out of 1800 equals about 2%. For arguments sake lets double that figure and we get to 4%. I believe BAJABABE or whatever she calls herself said "most of you (AWA) are scabs." I'm not sure how 4% equals MOST?

Your analysis is incorrect. Compare how many scabs comprised the list in the '83-'85 timeline. That is what the babe is talking about. Not now.

By the way there were more scabs listed for NWA and vastly more for UAL and CAL than there were at AWA.

and, tell me again the percentage because, I hate to break it to you, NWA, UAL and even CAL have a lot more pilots than A&W, up until the easties helped you out. Percentages usually work much better in those situations.

Eventually you are going to have to share a cockpit with west crewmembers.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Not to mention, there is no such word as "irregardless."

It's in my dictionary. Are you missing that page in yours?

It is a listed as occurring circa 1912 as a non-standard usage of "regardless."

But it IS a word.

 

[P51Pilot]

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than be able to turn back the hands of time and not merge with US Airways. I'd rather take my chance with AWA, even with a BK filing, then to have to deal with this mess. And the east, well, you would all be gone and not suffering through the travesty of the Nicolau list...oh the horror.

Hey just stand against a single contract too, and maybe they will have no choice but to spin the airlines off from each other. Sort of like Daimler Chrysler. Maybe your energy would be better spent that way, then trying to rob that bank that is never going to open.

 

[Barberpole]

Your analysis is incorrect. Compare how many scabs comprised the list in the '83-'85 timeline. That is what the babe is talking about. Not now.
and, tell me again the percentage because, I hate to break it to you, NWA, UAL and even CAL have a lot more pilots than A&W, up until the easties helped you out. Percentages usually work much better in those situations.
Maybe, maybe not.

what's your point? So Bajababe is denigrating all current AWA pilots because we had quite a few scabs in 83-85? Does that mean all CAL pilots hired in the last 10 years are second rate because CAL was chock full of scabs 20 years ago? How many scabs were at UAL in 1986? I would guess around 500. How many scabs were at CAL in the late 80's, well over a thousand? What about Eastern? You and Bajababe are superior to all UAL, CAL, and EAL pilots because your list isn't tainted? In effect you are saying that any pilot group that has scabs is a worthless pilot group.

Anyways, I'm done arguing nonsense. You can have the last word. I will close by saying it is YOUR pilot group that refuses to negotiate and set the bar higher for the industry. Your arrogance is the only thing keeping LCC pilots from getting a respectable contract. You can talk all you want about past scabs, inexperienced pilots, etc but your actions speak volumes. Your collective pilot group is all too happy to work indefinitely under a contract that would have sucked 20 years ago. All due to the fact that you don't want your seniority list 'tainted' with a bunch of stand up, good guys and gals from the west. Think what you want but we have a wealth of experience and an all around great group of individuals on the West side. I'm sure the same applies to the majority of the East pilots. Get new leadership before it does irreparable damage.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Not really wanting to pick a side in this, however I'm thinking you and your colleagues might do well to observe the current IAM Ramp vote and what can possibly happen to YOU as a west pilot if the Nicolau Award is not altered and a suitable alternative reached.

So lemme see if I have your opinion straight: we, the Westies, should appease the East's demands for the sake of the greater good. Do I have this right? We should just admit that binding arbitration doesn't need to be binding if one side doesn't like the results?

You are in a position of having won a major battle but in doing so end up losing the war.

I disagree. The Nicolau decision was the end of the Seniority War, a treaty if you will. This is a new war, in violation of the treaty, launched by the East. The best we can hope for is a draw.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Not saying that at all. ... From my limited knowledge the seniority issue can be fixed if everybody calms down and realizes that right wrong or indifferent that Nic and DOH are both as dead as Paris Hilton's brain and find some common ground.

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. The East has laid down the gauntlet: the West must agree to concessions or the East will do everything it can to make our lives miserable. You use platitudes that we need to work together yet it's only one side that's making demands. So yes, you definately are saying that the West should give in. If we even agree to negotiate the Nic Award it's still with a gun held to our heads. Either two sides negotiate as equals or not at all is my position.

The pilot group doesn't have to all gather around the campfire, roast marshmellows, sing songs and hold hands, however you do need to unite long enough to get a good contract and that's what I'm preaching. It's time to get paid!

You are aware that it's the East that pulled out of the joint contract negotiatiations, aren't you? I'm all for unity and right now it's only one side de-unifying.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I don't care if the Tooth Fairy started it. Keep on fighting, when it crumbles look in the mirror.

The problem with giving-in to tyranny is that it never spells the end of the tyrant. You're oversimplifying the issue. If we give in everybody loses.

 

[sharktooth]

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. The East has laid down the gauntlet: the West must agree to concessions or the East will do everything it can to make our lives miserable. You use platitudes that we need to work together yet it's only one side that's making demands. So yes, you definately are saying that the West should give in. If we even agree to negotiate the Nic Award it's still with a gun held to our heads. Either two sides negotiate as equals or not at all is my position.You are aware that it's the East that pulled out of the joint contract negotiatiations, aren't you? I'm all for unity and right now it's only one side de-unifying.

Let me get this straight.

You say seniority is dead. You want to ignore seniority in order to implement the N award, then, I guess, bring DOH seniority out of the closet to protect your position, after re-ordering your position via a virtual DOH. Is that right?

Because if you don't, what happens if 400 pilots get hired over the next four months, most former furloughees. They grieve that the ranking should be by LOS (or some other method), they go to arbitration and they win, jumping over you.

and besides, how are you going to deal with bidding for anything outside of the N list?

It appears you wish to suspend the rules in order to implement the N list, then re-implement the rules to keep yourself there. It seems, by your actions, US should plan on re-ordering the list every few years based on whatever blows your skirt up at the time. Hey, why don't you make it a lottery every couple of years, you seem to like the way the first one came out? That way, even the bottom pilot could have the same expectations as the #2 pilot.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Not saying that at all. Who started this is frankly immaterial. I think you need to pick the hill you want to die on and IMO this one isn't the right one. From my limited knowledge the seniority issue can be fixed if everybody calms down and realizes that right wrong or indifferent that Nic and DOH are both as dead as Paris Hilton's brain and find some common ground. I think the best you can hope for is that both parties walk away pissed off, but then you can focus on the real enemy.
In theory you're correct. In the real world where the planes actually Take off and land in that is NOT the case. ALL of you are going to piss away dollars that are rightfully yours by continuing to fight each other and not Dougweiser and Scooter.

You know full well who started this, and it may be immaterial to you, but I disagree. Nic is not opposite of DOH, Nic is common ground, everyone(mostly east) just thinks its a west win because west started with a more tenable position to begin with.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Let me get this straight.

You say seniority is dead. You want to ignore seniority in order to implement the N award, then, I guess, bring DOH seniority out of the closet to protect your position, after re-ordering your position via a virtual DOH. Is that right?

That was barely comprehensible but I'll try to address what I can. Nicolau decided what seniority is as applicable to this merger. I didn't and I don't.

Because if you don't, what happens if 400 pilots get hired over the next four months, most former furloughees.

The Nic Award allows for no bump or flush. So nothing happens.

They grieve that the ranking should be by LOS (or some other method), they go to arbitration and they win, jumping over you.

Grieve what, exactly? And you guys have already proven that you don't accept arbitration so any future disputes are going to be real interesting.

and besides, how are you going to deal with bidding for anything outside of the N list?

Don't know what you mean.

It appears you wish to suspend the rules in order to implement the N list, then re-implement the rules to keep yourself there.

Only in Bizzaro World can the West be said to be violating any rules.

 

[P51Pilot]

That was barely comprehensible but I'll try to address what I can. Nicolau decided what seniority is as applicable to this merger. I didn't and I don't.The Nic Award allows for no bump or flush. So nothing happens.Grieve what, exactly? And you guys have already proven that you don't accept arbitration so any future disputes are going to be real interesting.Don't know what you mean.Only in Bizzaro World can the West be said to be violating any rules.

There is no hope for this merger. Really the only hope is for the East to hold their ground on seniority and the war amongst pilots to continue, IAM Maintenance follow the fleet service workers and shoot down any TA that comes their way, and the FA's to follow suit. Maybe someone will get the good common sense to stick a fork in this thing and spin one of them off. Maybe Johnny O will buy the West.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Ok, let's think about that for a moment. Parker cuts bait and puts US up for sale: the east side to UAL and the west to Delta. East pilots will try to get DOH seniority with UAL and will not budge, finally going to arbitration. (Honestly, I think you guys are hosed if you ever go into arbitration again. The arbitrator world is a very close group of people who might not think too kindly of the bashing and mockery made on one of their own – Nicolau). After the arbitrators decision you will be back whining like a bunch of pussy cats about the "travesty" of "The List" once again.

OR, Parker can just cut the east operation and you guys can go back to being a standalone carrier, oh wait, that didn't work out too well for you guys. Then again, that might work out for the better since you seem to be a much happier and content group while downsizing and furloughing with no future.

There is no hope for this merger. Really the only hope is for the East to hold their ground on seniority and the war amongst pilots to continue, IAM Maintenance follow the fleet service workers and shoot down any TA that comes their way, and the FA's to follow suit. Maybe someone will get the good common sense to stick a fork in this thing and spin one of them off. Maybe Johnny O will buy the West.