AAA Alpa Thread 10/19-10/25

[Cactus737]

Excellent post.

The underlying reason for AAL's departure from ALPA are allive and well, even if their memory is lost to those who would suffer a repeat before reading the history to say "Duh. I should have read my history."

Excellent point about remembering exactly WHY AA left ALPA.

The issue was what to do with the "extra pilot" when the industry was experiencing the big switch from the 3-man to the 2-man cockpit. ALPA's C&BL essentially required airlines to do what United did - create the "navigator" position on the B737. IE preserve jobs.

American Airlines offered their pilots the opportunity to enjoy huge raises instead of preserving those jobs. Since this was contrary to ALPA's C&BL, AA pilots had to leave ALPA to do it.

So essentially, AA pilots couldn't sell out their junior guys with ALPA on property. So they formed their own union and have been selling out their junior pilots ever since.

Certainly I agree that Prater's biggest mistake was trying to take the path of least resistance. He should have dropped the hammer if his position was just. Since he delayed he acknowledged that there was a sufficient reason to delay. But now that he has decided to proceed as if there was no reason to delay, he is out of graces with both sides, and has no choice except to buy back votes of confidence.

Excellent observation. Prater was elected because he was "the guy running against Duane Woerth", and not because he offered anything superior to Duane. He offered alot of promises and his soudbites were outstanding, but that's about it.

Which relates us to the USAPA drive. People have pledged their allegiance to "the union running against ALPA" who has done nothing but offer alot of promises and soudbites. But nobody will know how bad USAPA is until they're actually in power. Amazing similarity.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

First, I think you'll find that "USAPA-haters" is a more correct term than "ALPA supporters" is with our group. Sort of like how we keep making the point that you have alot more "ALPA-haters" than "USAPA supporters". Just like how Prater got elected almost excluisively by the "anybody but Duane" vote.

It worked once, I guess we'll see if it works again. "Anybody but ALPA". Unless you can come up with an alternative soon.

Second, I think "credible alternative" is the exact point that we keep debating.

As before, we'll have to see how this plays out then.

We don't see a bitterly divided new union that is spending it's extremely scarce resources to defend itself from an incredible legal battle as it attempts to achieve the impossible in the court system as a credible alternative. Plus, as I've pointed out before, keeping secret documents from the West pilots doesn't even give us the chance to determine for ourselves what USAPA is actually offering. That secrecy speaks for itself.

I raised that very point. So in light of future events, the forum and library are closing no later than the end of the month. Does that solve your secrecy problem?

Third, your last comment about being "afraid" is completely without merit. Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that we did almost successfully boot ALPA. In fact, I think the only reason it didn't work is because we were in the middle of Section 6 at the time. But even our most staunch AWAPA supporters, who are true proponents of independent pilot unions, have come out publicly and pledged their vote for ALPA because they see USAPA for what it is.

Why did section 6 make a difference? You always have to start somewhere when replacing a current bargaining unit. Then what word would you describe for not following through with the decert drive? Timid? Bribed? What really surprises me is your posts, which only reinforces my opinions and statements of "credible alternative".

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Which relates us to the USAPA drive. People have pledged their allegiance to "the union running against ALPA" who has done nothing but offer alot of promises and soudbites. But nobody will know how bad USAPA is until they're actually in power. Amazing similarity.

Or how good since the structure of USAPA will not mirror ALPA's or APA's.

 

[Phoenix]

The issue was what to do with the "extra pilot" when the industry was experiencing the big switch from the 3-man to the 2-man cockpit. ALPA's C&BL essentially required airlines to do what United did - create the "navigator" position on the B737. IE preserve jobs.

Not jobs. Phoney baloney jobs and DUES for ALPA. Not surprising that they would understand how important phoney baloney jobs are.

this was contrary to ALPA's C&BL, AA pilots had to leave ALPA to do it.

Yes ALPA was going to shove their will on the AAL pilots to protect their own largesse.

So essentially, AA pilots couldn't sell out their junior guys with ALPA on property. So they formed their own union and have been selling out their junior pilots ever since.
Excellent observation.

Well thank you. Since you see such an amazing similarity, who are the junior guys that you alledge USAPA wants to screw? I thought ALAPs argument is that they aren't junior.

Vote for ALAP if you want to. Its a free country!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

DUES for ALPA.

Now that is a good post. Heaven forbid Herndon should lose any money.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually, the roots of APA started with a different issue concerning the "third man".....with the jets would the engineer be a pilot doing engineer duties (about half of AA's engineers at the time) or a professional engineer (which most in the industry were). The AA pilots favored the pilot/engineer on the same seniority list - they had an excess of pilots otherwise (counting the pilot/engineers). ALPA's other carriers flying jets didn't want to "dilute" the union by representing flight engineers.

APA was established before the other "third man" issue arose.

Of course, it didn't hurt that CR Smith promised the AA pilots that they'd be the highest paid airline pilots in the industry if they left ALPA - a promise he kept while he ran AA.

Jim

 

[exB717Flyer]

Thank's for covering that, Jim. I was going to do the research to post exactly what AA's beef with ALPA back in '63 was but you saved me the trouble. Guys like Phoenix love revising history to suit their purposes.

 

[nostradamus]

APA historical quote

"We fear the future for our ALPA with officers bent on stamping out any dissident group by placing a fine and suspension on the right to disagree, and we take this opportunity here and now to say to you that we are not paying one penny for this right or accepting one day of suspension. If this is the type of ALPA you support, then we will take it to mean that you are expressing the will of the majority of all members and we will take our leave of such an organization."

APA history

 

[Cactus737]

It worked once, I guess we'll see if it works again. "Anybody but ALPA". Unless you can come up with an alternative soon.

Under the present circumstances, I don't think there should be a union change. That's an alternative even most ALPA-haters realize.

As before, we'll have to see how this plays out then.

Considering how well Prater's presidency has gone, I'm not willing to make the same mistake twice.

So in light of future events, the forum and library are closing no later than the end of the month. Does that solve your secrecy problem?

It's not a problem, it's a very telling fact.

Why did section 6 make a difference? You always have to start somewhere when replacing a current bargaining unit. Then what word would you describe for not following through with the decert drive? Timid? Bribed? What really surprises me is your posts, which only reinforces my opinions and statements of "credible alternative".

I'm surprised I have to explain it to you. Section 6 made a difference because enough people understood that if AWAPA was successful, it would further delay an already overdue contract.

What is it that surprises you about my posts? That you have a hard time responding to them on topic?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I'm surprised I have to explain it to you. Section 6 made a difference because enough people understood that if AWAPA was successful, it would further delay an already overdue contract.

Oh, I see now. But It still didn't answer the question. So what difference did the delay make? If you want something new, waiting a little longer is a good thing.

What is it that surprises you about my posts? That you have a hard time responding to them on topic?

Topic? The topic was replacing ALPA. If they would let us start a USAPA thread, would that help? Which still further reinforces my statement on "credible alternative" to ALPA.

 

[EastUS]

Oh, I see now. But It still didn't answer the question. So what difference did the delay make? If you want something new, waiting a little longer is a good thing.

Topic? The topic was replacing ALPA. If they would let us start a USAPA thread, would that help? Which still further reinforces my statement on "credible alternative" to ALPA.

Just met and talked with another gent on the US list that I'd earlier flown copilot for very long ago...He's got all of 6 months to go before "retirement" (you know?=that joker thing thing that Alpo so easilly surrendered?=any pension/any actual future benefits?..certainly,......not for themselves in Alpo mind you, but for everyone else of the merely line pilot swine/non Alpo politican/orrifice worker/etc.....along with pretty much EVERYTHING else of value?), and he had the following to say = "I would at least like to see those thieving bastards in Alpa GONE before I leave". Does THAT give any semblance of a clue to the west folk who currently dream otherwise? I'd not met, nor spoken with this man in well over a decade, and his thoughts, completely honestly, came unsolicited. All I'd done was ask what he was up for after leaving, by way of "So..whatcha' gonna' do sir?, now that you'll soon be "free"? = Play golf?/etc"....honest...no kidding.

Addendum: For the AWA weenies? = "Sir" is a salutation I always give to my seniors,...be it in military rank or flying/life experience. I wouldn't, having subjected myself to your voluminous rantings, expect you "it's ALL about ME!!!" pathetic puppies to understand that concept. That issue is on your own souls.

PS:..And perhaps especially in light of my immediately recent conversation with an "elder" comrade = All my flying wagers to any/all AWA great "aces" are always on the table. Just perhaps..at the very least, maybe one of you"expletives" might possibly be worth a handshake. Nic's nonsense..how about YOU "prove it"? One note? = I cannot imagine ever giving challenge to east pilots...without a score or more responding with "Oh Yeah!!??"/"BS"/"Yo Mama"/"you're on dipsh-t!!"....but...it's always seemed amazingly quiet out in the desert, and...I could always use some extra chump change It would appear that we've "cultural differences" lol.

You guys rant over St Nic/"integrity"/"honor"/etc....but...not ONE of you is willing to prove your point in any way via the slightest personal trial....truly pathetic. I routinely see men who established lives in professional aviation before many of you were born.....and..we pretty much all can do little other than to just laugh at you clowns.

 

[prechilill]

Addendum: For the AWA weenies? = "Sir" is a salutation I always give to my seniors,...be it in military rank or flying/life experience. I wouldn't, having subjected myself to your voluminous rantings, expect you "it's ALL about ME!!!" pathetic puppies to understand that concept. That issue is on your own souls.

PS:..And perhaps especially in light of my immediately recent conversation with an "elder" comrade = All my flying wagers to any/all AWA great "aces" are always on the table. Just perhaps..at the very least, maybe one of you"expeltives" might possibly be worth a handshake. Nic's nonsense..how about YOU "prove it"? One note? = I cannot imagine ever giving challenge to east pilots...without a score or more responding with "Oh Yeah!!??"/"BS"/"Yo Mama"/"you're on dipsh-t!!"....but...it's always seemed amazingly quiet out in the desert, and...I could always use some extra chump change It would appear that we've "cultural differences" lol.

East,
There are quite a few pilots on the west side with military experience, just FYI. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the man in the mirror before blindly taking shots at the west pilot group. Forgive me for trivializing your service, but I see Marines every day who have truly sacrificed in our struggle for freedom which far exceeds anything you have ever done. For example, a 20 year old Corporal with no left arm or a 32 year old SEAL sitting on the fifth floor with a shattered face, breathing through an endotracheal tube. I suggest, my friend, you take a step back and understand your true place in life- you are just a pilot for an airline, nothing more or nothing less. As much as this thought may hurt, you are no different than the other 4,500 pilots on the USAir seniority list. Peace.

 

[AWA320]

East,
There are quite a few pilots on the west side with military experience, just FYI. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the man in the mirror before blindly taking shots at the west pilot group. Forgive me for trivializing your service, but I see Marines every day who have truly sacrificed in our struggle for freedom which far exceeds anything you have ever done. For example, a 20 year old Corporal with no left arm or a 32 year old SEAL sitting on the fifth floor with a shattered face, breathing through an endotracheal tube. I suggest, my friend, you take a step back and understand your true place in life- you are just a pilot for an airline, nothing more or nothing less. As much as this thought may hurt, you are no different than the other 4,500 pilots on the USAir seniority list. Peace.

Well stated Prechilli. I think that EastUS owes an apology at a bare minimum! I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on him though.

 

[traderjake]

"I would at least like to see those thieving bastards in Alpa GONE before I leave".

This is a perfect example of the emotion based thinking of my East brothers.

They believe ALPA gave our retirement away and if we had just voted no we will still have it.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

This is a perfect example of the emotion based thinking of my East brothers.

They believe ALPA gave our retirement away and if we had just voted no we will still have it.

ALPA did give away the retirement instead of making the company come get it. Our esteemed MEC Chairman du jour and negotiator extraordinaire presented the proposal to the MEC and used scare tactics to get the deal. ALPA "Advisor's" were advocating the switch to a DC plan that was at the least, planned to make the senior guys whole or almost whole at the time. Give you 3 guesses who the administrator of the new plan with the attendant administrator fees going with it. Hint: The first 2 guesses don't count. That is going on even today with all the DC plan administrative money. Finally, the judge in the case said the company met the criteria for a distressed termination, BUT it had to be taken care of through the collective bargaining agreement. So in effect, our boys kowtowed to the ALPA advisor's and gave away the DB plan. In addition, the company had placed an absolute 1 week only, take it or leave it clause. Knowing our weak MEC would cave and not allow a vote.

Once again don't you love after the fact information, turns out the DB plan was not in as bad of shape as presented by the company. But our ALPA advisor's dropped the ball and fell for it hook, line and sinker. No alternatives such as freezing the plan or anything else was pursued. So the MEC, when questioned placed the blame on the advisor's keeping themselves golden ie "It's not our fault" stance.

Just to add insult to injury, the company then comes back for more and reduces the contributions to 10%. Where was national backing us up? Oh yea, it was there idea to help give it away in the first place. One more failure by national and an MEC relying on the "experts". Under the Constitution and ByLaws of USAPA, we would have had a vote, the company would have known a vote was required, there won't be anymore giveaways by the "few" that affect the many. Would we still have the DB plan? Maybe not in its past form, but it could have been frozen thereby preserving a big chunk of it.

addendum: That's the abbreviated version.