AA - NWA - SWA - Mechanic Pay Comparison

[RV4]

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On 5/22/2003 10:31:13 AM 1AA wrote:

And what does the TWU = ??????

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TWU = Lower Dues because they now lowered your base pay!!!!

I will pay higher dues for higher pay and worthwhile representation!

How about everyone else?

The TWU logic behind their AMFA attacks exhibit much fear of AMFA.

It will not be long now!

 

[Bob Owens]

The SEIU put out a booklet titled "United We Win".There is a link to it on the 562 website. It is a brief synopsis of the problems facing todays labor movement.

What is startling about the document is its direct criticism of greedy "catch all" unions. The SEIU is the largest union in the AFL-CIO. It contains 9.7% of the AFL-CIO. 

One of the things that they stress is the need for "Industry-focused unions, not general unions". pg 21

Another quote "The labor movement's curent structure and culture actually stand in the way of building workers' industry and market strength".

What we just saw happen across our industry explicitly validates that statement.

Pg 13  Chapter H talks about how the unions, greedy for dues and members keep workers strength divided.
The transportation industry has the most different unions within the AFL-CIO. Most of these are "general unions". These unions can not attempt to consolidate the workers from other unions within the AFL-CIO and most do not consider the airlines their primary focus.

I've spoken to Sonny Hall- President of the TWU,on the subject of consolidating the ATDs of AFL-CIO unions. Sonny is also the head of the Transportation Trades Division (TTD) of the AFL-CIO. He claimed that he is not against the idea and agreed with the merits such an organization would provide for workers in this industry. So why not do it? I asked. He felt that most of the resistance would come from the middle ranks of union management.  Those like Jim Little, Gary Yingst and other mid level union leaders who aspire to the top $200,000 per year job that Sonny now has. If the unions merge there would be fewer spots available and more competition. So much for mutual sacrifice, solidarity, an injury to one and all the other familiar slogans we hear from them. Its still "I got mine".

True unionists may disagree with some of AMFAs philosophy, but one thing that any objective unionist would admit is the concept of unifying  uniquely skilled workers in a particular industry is a superior strategy for economic success than to be a part of a part of a part of a union that is not even primarily focused on your industry let alone your unique skills.

The same is true for flight attendants.

The same is true for fleet service workers.

Apparently, since none of the general unions are likely to be willing to do what is best for the members in the airline industry, because it will affect its bottom line, and we all know that bottom line is the primary focus of any business, the workers are left with two choices. The status quo, or change.

The status quo is perfectly acceptable to people like Jim Little and Gary Yingst. Both are making salaries far in excess that of which they could expect to earn if they had remained in their original profession. They both helped make sure of that. They have no motivation to allow the "change from within" that they try to use to sway critics. Proof of that is that they are now in the position to affect such change but they do not. They will use everything in their power to prevent it, lest they see the opportunity for that top job dissapear. It goes without saying that they will fight a change in representation.

So we can either fight our own unions, or go and try and form new ones. Both approaches have  their advantages and disadvantages. At this point the best option for all airline workers is to take both. The best driver for internal change is a viable external threat. One need not worry about splitting energies, all it takes to keep the external threat is 2 minutes to fill out a card and 37 cents to mail it. Fighting our own unions for internal change requires much more effort but if successful the structure is in place. Its like storming a castle or building a new one.

It is in the mechanics best interests to support AMFA, the Flight Attendants best interests to support the PFAA, and other ground workers to support the Ground Workers Union. The fact that our current representatives have no competition has led to the could care less attitude of these well paid representatives. They do not see us as equals in a mutual struggle, but merely clients to be serviced and sent on their way. At well over $100K per year their commonailty no longer exists with us, its pure rhetoric. Their goals are for personal elevation within the organization not our well being or that of the working class.

Now we will see our leaders fight. Now that their pay and position are threatened. It will be a stark contrast to how all of them laid down when our pay, benifits and working conditions were on the line.

 

[RV4]

Bob Owens,

Isn't it strange how Sonny blames Jim, Jim blames Gary, Gary blames Sonny, and nothing ever changes?

There is always someone else to blame and never an implemented solution.

Do be fooled by Sonny Hall, he is just as greedy as the rest, and he also violates workers rights!

 

[Bob Owens]

Yea and the International blames the Presidents Council and the council blames the International.

Meanwhile the members are left out in the cold and told "You need to become involved". They are right, we do, but not how they want us to.

 

[Checking it Out]

Dave Qoute,

Bob Owens,

Isn''t it strange how Sonny blames Jim, Jim blames Gary, Gary blames Sonny, and nothing ever changes?

There is always someone else to blame and never an implemented solution.

Do be fooled by Sonny Hall, he is just as greedy as the rest, and he also violates workers rights!
Bobs Qoute,

Yea and the International blames the Presidents Council and the council blames the International.

Meanwhile the members are left out in the cold and told "You need to become involved". They are right, we do, but not how they want us to.

Members are only left out in the Cold when the Officers Fail in their responsibilities!

You two have been spouting off for years on these sites and have only shown how much mis-informed you are!

You two are filled with so much anger with yourselfs for your failures you have lost sight of the good! A very few voted for dave the last time he ran for office and bob has failed in servicing the TWU Members properly!

I do not believe amfa will want you either!

As for your response further up Bob, So you are telling us amfa now has changed their goals for a Mechanics only Union?

I believe the ATD side of the TWU has 3 times more Aviation members than amfa! I think this is the same scenerio you are advocating!

TWU SOLIDARITY!

 

[j7915]

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On 5/22/2003 3:34:51 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 5/22/2003 10:31:13 AM 1AA wrote:


And what does the TWU = ??????


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TWU = Lower Dues because they now lowered your base pay!!!!



I will pay higher dues for higher pay and worthwhile representation!


How about everyone else?


The TWU logic behind their AMFA attacks exhibit much fear of AMFA.


It will not be long now!

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RV4 Simple I don''t want to have the likes of you with your conservative, "I am ecstatic that Dubya was selected" mentality having anything to do with my conditions of employment at AA or anywhere else.

I hear only non-work related complains from the AMFA pushers, how many times have you tried to explain to your congressional reps that technical jobs should stay in the US? Not just the high level I sign log books, but lower down on the food chain also?

 

[RV4]

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On 5/23/2003 12:30:23 PM j7915 wrote:

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RV4 Simple I don''t want to have the likes of you with your conservative, "I am ecstatic that Dubya was selected" mentality having anything to do with my conditions of employment at AA or anywhere else.

I hear only non-work related complains from the AMFA pushers, how many times have you tried to explain to your congressional reps that technical jobs should stay in the US? Not just the high level I sign log books, but lower down on the food chain also?


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Beyond Bill Clinton''s NAFTA and GATT, give us the details of your favorite Democrat helping the working man, and protecting jobs from overseas outsource?

Try Contract Language dependence instead of legislation mercy and you might actaully get somewhere.

 

[Buck]

Yes, that would be a good. A TWU shop Steward informed me today that the AFL-CIO is part of the US Govt. Is this what the TWu is teaching at "Stewards Corner"?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/23/2003 921 AM Checking it Out wrote:





Members are only left out in the Cold when the Officers Fail in their responsibilities!

You mean like when a local asks the International for information and they refuse to respond?
Like when the members and the locals ask for a breakdown of the vote and the International says that we have to pay for it? (As if the 33% that they take is not enough, someone has to pay their six figure salaries and the $300k in cars for them.)

You two have been spouting off for years on these sites and have only shown how much mis-informed you are!

How much misinformed am I?

You two are filled with so much anger with yourselfs for your failures you have lost sight of the good! A very few voted for dave the last time he ran for office and bob has failed in servicing the TWU Members properly!

Who voted to put you in your present position?

What is a yourselfs?

I do not believe amfa will want you either!

As for your response further up Bob, So you are telling us amfa now has changed their goals for a Mechanics only Union?

Not to my knowledge.

I believe the ATD side of the TWU has 3 times more Aviation members than amfa!

Is that all that matters? More numbers?
Read the link on our website to the SEIU paper titled "United We Win". Maybe "yerself will learned a ting or too."



TWU SOLIDARITY!











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[j7915]

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On 5/23/2003 3:05:38 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 5/23/2003 12:30:23 PM j7915 wrote:

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RV4 Simple I don''t want to have the likes of you with your conservative, "I am ecstatic that Dubya was selected" mentality having anything to do with my conditions of employment at AA or anywhere else.


I hear only non-work related complains from the AMFA pushers, how many times have you tried to explain to your congressional reps that technical jobs should stay in the US? Not just the high level I sign log books, but lower down on the food chain also?



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Beyond Bill Clinton''s NAFTA and GATT, give us the details of your favorite Democrat helping the working man, and protecting jobs from overseas outsource?


Try Contract Language dependence instead of legislation mercy and you might actaully get somewhere.

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Like the great "we have job protection contract at AMFA represented NWA"? It was posted that ASA is also starting a major farm out campaign.

What is the last time we have had Oklahoma democrats on capitol hill? Who says anything about legislative mercy? It is obvious that if the AFL-CIO cannot deliver the vote they cannot convince legislators to listen. As I said AMFADave was ecstatic that Dubya was finally selected after those nerve racking months of indecision. With friends like that the unions are in no need of enemies.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/19/2003 5:08:05 PM RV4 wrote:


So you agree on a contract that puts your whole career in the hands of an arbitrator if you are unjustly terminated, but God forbid he decide how much you make if you are reinstated? Hmmm....Interesting Philosophy!
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There is a big difference between interest based arbitration, arbitration for discipline and the government proposed arbitration for airline labor contracts.

In interest based arbitration I believe that only certain things are brought before the arbitrator, in discipline cases the company has to prove just cause to the arbitrator, in the S-1327 bill the union will have to prove that;
1) The company can afford to give the increase to all its workforce, not just the petitioner.
2) That the increase will not adversely affect stockholder returns.
3) That the increase will not hurt the carriers competative position in regards to labor costs.
4) That the rate does not exceed the rate of inflation.

Arbitration is supposed to present a neutral setting for resloving a dispute. Under these conditions, all of which favor managements arguement for not giving any raises, the setting could hardly be considered neutral.

Under these conditions we would be legislatively locked into a race to the bottom. Even changing representation would not help us. The lowest rate paid at any airline would be where every one else is headed. Stockholders would be guaranteed returns while workers wages would be supressed. This bill just goes to show how sick, greedy and in control the corporate interests have become of our democracy. Our lawmakers are trying to put in laws that cheat American workers out of the ability to influence what they sell their labor for while guaranteeing stockholders, who may even be foreigners, the right to make money off our labor.
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[Bob Owens]

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On 5/20/2003 10:02:44 PM FWAAA wrote:

Gosh, no, there''s nothing "wrong" with it. And you were compensated equally with your peers when AA could afford to (like when cash flow was several million per day Positive instead of Negative, as it has been since late 2001).

And when AA can once again afford to compensate you equally with your peers, then more power to you to demand it and get it.


Using that logic then shouldnt our executives make less than those at SWA and JetBlue? Why should they continue to get paid more while delivering less?




As I posted the other day - if everyone wants to share in the good times, sometimes you''ve got to share in the bad times. (The last couple of years, for anyone not paying attention, have been the worst two years of AA''s 77 years of existence.) That, or find an employer where there are no "bad times."

Maybe in your Pollyanna world that would be the case but history shows that we do not get to share in the good times. When the company makes a profit we get pennies on the dollar for our concessions. Now we get nothing uless they make over $500 million in profit, in other words nothing.

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[RV4]

And without interest based arbitration, or passage of S-1327 the TWU has now advanced the following into the airline industry standards:

17.5% Paycut
Loss of Skill/License Pay
Loss of 5 Paid Holidays per Year
Loss of 5 Paid Vacation Days per Year
Loss of 7 Bank Sick Days per Year
Loss of 50% Sick Pay for First 2 Day of Every Occurance
Loss of Longevity Pay
Loss of Shift Differential Pay
Loss of Weekend Premuim Pay
Increased Paycheck Deductions for Medical
3400 Plus Members - Loss of Job Security Protection

Previous to the above:
B-Scales
C-Scales
Flex Benefits
Longer Probation
Pre-funding Retirement Medical
Shop Repair Person Pay Schedules

I have no doubt that I missed a few, but you get the point.



Hey, I am no fan of any company slanted scheme for negotiating labor agreements.

But I sure dont see how anything could be more company slanted than the long list of concessions the TWU has capitulated on without any abritrator involved at all.

TWU is not unionism - The TWU is sloganism

"DONT LOWER WAGES OPPOSE RIGHT-TO-WORK"
"AN INJUSTICE TO ONE - IS AN INJUSTICE FOR ALL"
"PROUD TO BE UNION"
"UNITED WE STAND"
"TRIUMPH IN UNITY"
"BEST WORKERS IN THE WORLD"
"WILL STRIKE IF PROVOKED"
"FLUSH RUSH"
"RIGHT-TO-WORK IS WRONG"
"TWU STRIKE FORCE - DEAD SERIOUS"
"I AM THE UNION"
"PARTICPATE"
"UNITED WE STAND - DIVIDED WE BEG"
"VOTE NO ON SQ-695"
"We'll Get 'em Nest Time"

I have no doubt that I missed a few, but you get the point here also.

Simply Put...

TWU SUCKS!

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes but under the current situation there is still the possibility that the members will educate themselves. Its slim but there is still the possibility. There is also the possibility that leaders may emerge, either within this organization or through another that will facilitate educating the members. Then maybe, again, just a chance, members will reject substandard agreements and vote to strike in order to improve their lives instead of rolling over like they have.

If S-1327 is put in place that possibility is removed.

NWA is AMFA, they threatened to strike. They did not give away their rights through binding arbitration. They voted on their contract. So did Alaska. So did those that were allowed by the TWU. This thing should have been rejected by a huge margin. These people are adults and are responsible for their own ignorance. Being an adult gives us both the priviledge and resposibility for the choices we make. Do we really want to give that to some government beaurocrat?

 

[b777conehead]

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On 5/20/2003 10:02:44 PM FWAAA wrote:

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On 5/20/2003 9:17:28 PM Buck wrote:
I am curious.......

Is there something wrong with being compensated equally with my peers in the same industry?

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Gosh, no, there''s nothing "wrong" with it. And you were compensated equally with your peers when AA could afford to (like when cash flow was several million per day Positive instead of Negative, as it has been since late 2001).

And when AA can once again afford to compensate you equally with your peers, then more power to you to demand it and get it.

But sorry to burst any dreams out there, but AA was bleeding itself dry by spending more cash each day than it took in. I know, it''s management''s fault, it''s the cheapass customers'' fault, it''s not your fault. But even though it''s not your fault - AA could no longer afford to pay you what it had been paying.

Foolishly, Carty tried to trim expenses and probably prayed each night that revenue would miraculously return Before he even mentioned the subject of concessions. Too bad for him.

The choices you faced earlier this year were:

(a) accept $1.8 billion in annual wage concessions (which may be more like $2.4 billion or so); OR

(B) reject the concessions and force AA to file Ch 11, causing it to spend hundreds of millions (UAL recorded a $248 million Q1 charge alone for "restructuring expenses") needlessly, all with the prospect of even bigger concessions or contract abrogation.

Shrinking the airline and keeping pay high was simply not one of the choices. It would not have moved AA toward positive cash flow.

Outside advisors counseled the three unions and each concluded that bankruptcy should be avoided. The pilots agreed, the TWU agreed, and after several do-overs and threats, the FAs agreed. And the employees got Carty''s head and a favorable modification to the concessions'' term. Half a dozen posters here are upset and think that a judicial do-over will improve their lot in life. If only it were so easy.

Is it wrong for you to be paid equally? Hell, No. Is it currently possible for AA to pay you equally? Hell, No.

I want every AMR employee to enjoy industry-leading wages. I also want AMR to post another Billion Dollar profit. And I wish AA would order a slew of 747s (or pick them up used from UAL). As we all know, not everything on my wish list in this paragraph is going to happen, ever.

Yep - I wish that AA would just increase fares and right the ship (power held by AA, according to Bob Owens). I wish that Dell would just raise the price of PCs to make even higher profits. And I wish that the value of my house would appreciate even faster than it is. And I wish that AA would increase the size of my J and F meals substantially and serve meals in Y on short flights.

But wishing for something stopped working for me when the tooth fairy last visited my pillow many decades ago.

As I posted the other day - if everyone wants to share in the good times, sometimes you''ve got to share in the bad times. (The last couple of years, for anyone not paying attention, have been the worst two years of AA''s 77 years of existence.) That, or find an employer where there are no "bad times."

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i do not know what you do fwaa. but as a amt no matter what the status of the company is we are taking legal respectabilities for the planes we work.
we should be compensated for it not having our pay cut. its all Carty''s fault for buying twa. if carty can justify is putting money in funds. he should not have asked and been granted pay cuts by the 3 unions. and isn''t funny how the flight att didn''t go thru the first vote day and they were the only ones who couldn''t go back and change there vote its funny how after aa let them re-vote it passed and its funny the vote company had dealings with a retired aa executive.