AA and APFA expidite talks

[Bear96]

Of course, it is just a gesture, though I think it rather condescending of you to characterize it as theater. Whether or not the gentlemen are already millionaires does not diminish the gesture. It was a noble thing to do regardless of whether it affects their financial situation at all.

Why do I think if it had been AA management that had done this you would not be nearly as magnanimous.

 

[Skymess]

Agree. While I don't advocate further concessions, I'm surprised that any employees actually think that concession restoration is within the realm of possible outcomes right now. I'm a little surprised that the TWU was offered small signing bonuses and not further paycuts. Same with the FAs.

Realistically (at least IMO), concession restoration wouldn't be offered if AMR were on track to make profits of half a billion this year, let alone now that it's on target to lose perhaps $2 billion or more.

I'm stunned at just how out of touch so many people are. AMR is likely staring down the barrel of a Ch 11 filing within a year, and this one won't be optional - no amount of employee concessions will prevent it. I know lots of employees say with swagger - "bring it on" but I'm also certain that Ch 11 will be an eye-opener to the "I'm voting no if I don't get it all back now" crowd.

Call it swagger, being out of touch, or whatever you want to call it, but if we go to bankruptcy than we go to bankruptcy. I'm not under any delusions we will get our old contract back during these times of "economic uncertainty" and after 3 weeks of negotiations. I'm just not giving anything else up under the guise of saving the company for managment to pad their pockets at workers expense and sacrifice. I also look at friends at other carriers that went through bankruptcy who have longer layovers, crew meals, holiday pay, adequate rest periods, shorter duty periods, and have to question whether my higher pay per hour is worth as much as what they still have that I gave up?

There are still some parts of our FA contract that can be changed to benefit the company that we can profit from if we negotiate the right way and use what we have as a bargaining chip. One of those is merging our international and domestic division and another is forcing everyone to be qualified on all aircraft and all positions. Is it something I necessarily want? No. I don't want to do domestic at all. It is a tradeoff that will save the company money in the long run while allowing us to benefit from it, if the union managed to negotiate it the right way.

The unfortunate thing is many of my colleagues and I have ZERO faith in the abilities of any of our current union officers.

I'm not advocating bankruptcy. I'm just not going to sit around and vote yes to anything that sets me further back in order to avoid it. You want to call me a stupid hard head, then that's what I am. Management and my union lost my trust in 2003 by bad faith bargaining of negotiating permanant pay cuts without snap back clauses when we helped the company back to profitability. That was a red flag right there for me that their major intent was union busting but our BOD ate it up like tainted candy. My pay and work rules were set back to 1993 levels. Was management's?

You want to talk about productivity? Regardless of how low our management count is compared to other airlines, we still have too many.Look to management and have them do more than one job. There's a manager for everything and they all can't do anything for you because they have to talk to this manager who talks to that manager....and so on and so on.....
On the FA level, is there really a need for someone to handle parking when the MOD is the one taking all the info down? Is there a need for a uniform rep when they can't do anything for you anyway? The list goes on.

Sorry. I'm not taking concessions or voting yes to garbage. I'm not expecting a miracle but I do believe there are things that can be done that will satisfy everyone if it is done, and presented, the right way.

 

[AAStew]

I am with SkyMess on this one. Let's get rid of all the excess supervisory and management that we have. If there re no true improvements in this contract, I am voting no. If bankruptcy is threatened, well they can explain to their stockholders...

 

[TWU informer]

I am with SkyMess on this one. Let's get rid of all the excess supervisory and management that we have. If there re no true improvements in this contract, I am voting no. If bankruptcy is threatened, well they can explain to their stockholders...

Stand your ground, save your cash, buy the stock right after BK filing.
If you can't beat 'em join 'em.

I plan to windfall 49% of my 401k via personal loan taken out and then invested in the AMR stock right after the filing in 2009. If they screw us over in a pre-packaged BK the profits will soar and your 401k will likely return all concessions to your own pocketbook.

Hell if you have to also second mortgage your property and ride on the backs on their stock award profit program.

Might also motion your union to invest every penny they have on hand in stock and split the profits amongst the membership.

 

[Veritas]

I also look at friends at other carriers that went through bankruptcy who have longer layovers, crew meals, holiday pay, adequate rest periods, shorter duty periods, and have to question whether my higher pay per hour is worth as much as what they still have that I gave up?

What took so long to figure that one out?

The unfortunate thing is many of my colleagues and I have ZERO faith in the abilities of any of our current union officers.

Chris, aren't you a die hard John Ward supporter? In case you forgot, he is the one who got you into this mess in the first place when he rolled over and played dead during the RPA negotiations back in 2003.

 

[AMFAMAN]

I plan to windfall 49% of my 401k via personal loan taken out and then invested in the AMR stock right after the filing in 2009.

Just hope they don't cancel the stock like the others did... <_<

 

[TWU informer]

Just hope they don't cancel the stock like the others did... <_<

Wasn't a new stock created and offered? Or are they private companies now?

 

[FWAAA]

Wasn't a new stock created and offered? Or are they private companies now?

Sure, new stock was issued to the unsecured creditors and the old stock was canceled.

Well, you said "right after the filing in 2009," which made me think you were talking about buying the old AMR once it hits two bits or so. As you know, not a good idea.

As AMFAMAN mentioned, might wanna wait until the reorg plan is confirmed and the new stock is issued. Buyers of LCC did ok until the bottom fell out.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Sure, new stock was issued to the unsecured creditors and the old stock was canceled.

Well, you said "right after the filing in 2009," which made me think you were talking about buying the old AMR once it hits two bits or so. As you know, not a good idea.

As AMFAMAN mentioned, might wanna wait until the reorg plan is confirmed and the new stock is issued. Buyers of LCC did ok until the bottom fell out.

You wont be able to afford it.
UAUA new stock opened at 40 dollars a share.
Your best bet dont buy airline stock.
😉

 

[Skymess]

What took so long to figure that one out?


Chris, aren't you a die hard John Ward supporter? In case you forgot, he is the one who got you into this mess in the first place when he rolled over and played dead during the RPA negotiations back in 2003.

yes I was and still am a ward supporter. Hutto Blake and her cronies on the BOD originally wanted to forego our pay increases in January 2003 and to begin negotiations for concessions sooner. They hated the fact that Ward didn't want to speak about concessions until the evidence it was needed was complete. The argument for or against Ward still revolves around that decision. I was against concession discussions until they could prove they really needed them.

The BOD's resolutions for that time period speak for themselves. They decided to negotiate concessions at any cost, to do telephonic balloting, and to extend my balloting period. THAT wasn't Ward's doing. I DO have a grudge against Ward for telling us we would get a revote and then signing off on the RPA. That grudge is nothing compared to the one I hold for ALL members of the BOD and their base reps for their decision making and scare tactics that resulted in the RPA being shoved up our collective a**.

I wasn't against giving concessions if it would have helped us stay solvent and out of bankruptcy. My argument has always been, and still is, giving everything up that they asked for and giving EVERYTHING away without ANY snap back clauses.

We'll see if Glading proves to be worth what so many of you think she is. I don't have any faith so I can only be pleasantly surprised if she comes up with anything worth looking at.

 

[Veritas]

yes I was and still am a ward supporter...

That says it all.

The bottom unconverted line is that Ward and his administration were woefully unprepared for the RPA negotiations. They did not even have their own calculations as to the values of the concessions which the company grossly undervalued. As a result, management steam rollered over them.

Remember Harry S Truman's famous saying: "The buck stops here?" Why can't Ward and his apologists own responsibility for their own failures instead of always trying to deflect the blame elsewhere?

 

[TWU informer]

Sure, new stock was issued to the unsecured creditors and the old stock was canceled.

Well, you said "right after the filing in 2009," which made me think you were talking about buying the old AMR once it hits two bits or so. As you know, not a good idea.

As AMFAMAN mentioned, might wanna wait until the reorg plan is confirmed and the new stock is issued. Buyers of LCC did ok until the bottom fell out.

That is the plan, sorry for the confusion.

 

[The Goose]

That is the plan, sorry for the confusion.

I'd thought about that also - it sounds OK to a point.

Even though it's in a better position than the common stock, I've gotten rid of my holdings in their exchange traded bond (symbol AAR) as it's falling more than I care to see. Good dividends, though, if you've the stomach for it (.492 per share/quarter). I may play again later.

 

[BigBangTheory]

yes I was and still am a ward supporter. Hutto Blake and her cronies on the BOD originally wanted to forego our pay increases in January 2003 and to begin negotiations for concessions sooner. They hated the fact that Ward didn't want to speak about concessions until the evidence it was needed was complete. The argument for or against Ward still revolves around that decision. I was against concession discussions until they could prove they really needed them.

The BOD's resolutions for that time period speak for themselves. They decided to negotiate concessions at any cost, to do telephonic balloting, and to extend my balloting period. THAT wasn't Ward's doing. I DO have a grudge against Ward for telling us we would get a revote and then signing off on the RPA. That grudge is nothing compared to the one I hold for ALL members of the BOD and their base reps for their decision making and scare tactics that resulted in the RPA being shoved up our collective a**.

I wasn't against giving concessions if it would have helped us stay solvent and out of bankruptcy. My argument has always been, and still is, giving everything up that they asked for and giving EVERYTHING away without ANY snap back clauses.

We'll see if Glading proves to be worth what so many of you think she is. I don't have any faith so I can only be pleasantly surprised if she comes up with anything worth looking at.

A wAArd supporter? You need a reality check! You and jimntx, b**ch and complain about everything. The two of you should run for National Office in 2012. If you win (highly doubt you would), then the two of you can b**ch at each other.

 

[Skymess]

That says it all.

The bottom unconverted line is that Ward and his administration were woefully unprepared for the RPA negotiations. They did not even have their own calculations as to the values of the concessions which the company grossly undervalued. As a result, management steam rollered over them.

Remember Harry S Truman's famous saying: "The buck stops here?" Why can't Ward and his apologists own responsibility for their own failures instead of always trying to deflect the blame elsewhere?

You have your opinions and I have mine.

We'll see how valuable your girl is in the next 3 weeks...won't we?

BTW, how's that Decline/Resign campaign working out?