A.M.F.A. support at the line stations?

[Anomaly]

Anomaly,

At the bottom of your post above you say I don't have to like you or agree with you. How can I like you if I don't know who you are?

You claim to be a UA mechanic. Okay, who are you?

Yes, I am a current UAL mechanic.

I see no reason in singling or calling me out only because I have an opposite opinion or offer a different perspective to you or the others on this board. If the creators of this site choose to make it mandatory that each poster must identify themselves, I will make the decision to continue at that time. For now, if everyone else can remain anonymous, I'll reserve my right to do so as well.

I do not wish to do this on a full time basis. I am happy that neither AMFA, nor the IBT know who I am and I do not wish to be approached by either for any reason. I hope you and the moderators of this site can respect this.

 

[Anomaly]

Wow, Ironic.

I was just thinking of how your typical teamster inability to deal with the facts reminded me of the Family Guy LMAO!

Nice one!! Just to be clear, you're the donkey, right?

 

[Anomaly]

Typical IBT rhetoric. Never answer the questions but throw out a bunch of bullshit, repeat it and keep what sticks.
Maybe Anomaly can explain why the IBT dropped the outsourcing grievance filed by AMFA that was 95% complete.
But I doubt it.
B) xUT

95% complete? And it only took nearly 5 years to get to that 95%. Before you say it, neither one of those statements are true. The IBT did not drop the grievance, and AMFA was not only at 95%. It did not take them 5 years either. AMFA did error on staying on top of the outsourcing issue, and the company was able to take advantage of this. At the same time, AMFA actually did improve the language by adding mandatory audits. Unfortunately, they could not afford to pay for these audits themselves and required financial assistance from the company. What type of audit do you expect to get when the group you are auditing is the one paying for the audit? AMFA also added language to the contract to help pay for such items. This money was readily paid by the company to the Union, but it was taken out of funds that would have gone to the membership. How ‘bout them apples? If you are good with that xUT, you can make your own donations. I pay Union dues. I expect the Union to be able to afford to represent me, not take it out of my collective bargaining agreement.

I answer the questions, you just want a different answer.

 

[Anomaly]

I read some postings earlier that the TWU was under gag order. With AMFA you would not have been. AMFA would have had seats available for the membership to attend. This way you can sit there and watch exactly how your nego team is doing in action, as well as paticipate in the nego proccess. Can you do this with the TWU? No. Can you do this with the corrupted teamsters? NO. Also with AMFA, the membership votes for all nego members who are to be representing the membership at the table. TWU? No. Teamsters? No. All I can say is if you all want the same secret nego behind closed doors going on, and continue with these union presidents enacting contracts without a membership vote then you just keep the TWU.

For you AAers sitting on the fence, I say this. Vote in AMFA (you will not be disappointed as long as you all vote in the correct leadership to run AMFA) try them for 2 years, if you are not 100% better informed and better involved with them, simply recall the officers not working to your satisfaction. With AMFA you can do this, with TWU or teamsters you cannot. You are stuck with whomever was appointed. Never will I say AMFA is perfect, no union is. However, at least with AMFA the membership can make changes and tweaks fix the items that are not working in the memberships eyes. You cannot do this with anyone else. At AMFA the membership is who makes changes to the constitution, by-laws, local leadership, National leadership, each and every officer, nego committees, who we bring in as the experts, ASAP committee, ect... ect... The membership runs the union. The membership also votes on officers pay. Example: At SWA certain positions within AMFA are paid 200.00 per month above their current salary, not 100,000-200,000 plus for the union positions. Our membership also has to vote when the local wants spend more than 300.00 bucks. When we fired the teamsters, local 19 was having constant negative monthly ballances, since AMFA has came in, we have maintained a positive ballance each and every month.

I know this got a little long, but I think it was needed. When you guys vote AMFA in, DO NOT vote for the TWU guys to run it for you. This will be suiside. They would run it in the ground on purpose to say, "see, we told you guys not to go with AMFA" Look around right now at the folks promoting AMFA and get these guys that you know will make good leaders into those positions. Get involved, you guys will be amazed at what all the membership will have to vote on once you do bring AMFA in. This is how AMFA works though, from the membership, not appointed buddy-buddy system. Good luck to you guys, I really hope you all will give AMFA a shot, you will not be disappointed. 99% of us at SWA are extremely we fired the teamsters and brought in AMFA, never looking back...

You are absolutely correct. AMFA does engage in open negotiations and allows anyone who wants to attend these meetings. The effect of this however is negative, and the company absolutely loves them for this. Through this irresponsible behavior, the company is able to negotiate directly with the membership and gain an advantage. This is possible because the observer is under no order or obligation to keep what he hears private. And they do not. As soon as possible results of the meetings are posted for all, including the company, to see.

Time and time again the company is able to intercept messages to the membership and gauge the Union members position and attitude. The company uses it against the membership knowing exactly what the bottom line is. It is like playing poker with all the cards exposed. When the house has all the money, and can see your cards, how can you win?

The company also monitors forums like this and expects news from the negotiations to be leaked by the observers. In these instances, sometimes too much information can be shared. Sorry to bring up unpopular history, but at NWA the company knew exactly what the Union was planning. Based on this knowledge they made their own preparations. I think the strike at NWA could have gone much differently had the company been caught off guard. As it was, the replacements were trained and ready when AMFA took its members out on strike.

Sometimes private unrestricted talks are beneficial.

 

[Anomaly]

And yet another text book example of teamster twisted reasoning, tortured logic, and outright lies.




"finally admit it"??? Where did I ever deny it?

Now before I break down your "three little issues" there is a matter of one big outright lie you repeatedly try and base your issues on, and that's the 70% of the membership you keep referring to. Where'd you come up with that number? A simple review of the NMB certification clearly shows the teamsters DID NOT have support of 70% of the eligible UAL membership. Hell, take away those who didn't bother to vote and the teamsters still didn't carry 70%

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2008/35n033.pdf

Check those numbers.....switch 742 teamster votes the other way and its a whole new ballgame.

After the continuing mediocre representation, broken promises, and those oh so pesky lies the ibt told during the campaign, you really think the ibt would garner the same number of votes?

Okay, onto your "issues"




Whoever said the UAL mechanics were stupid? I certainly never did. I said they were lied to and they were. Do you deny the teamsters promised the UAL mechanics a double vesting pension via the WCTPP, and that this promise was a major selling point of the ibt campaign? Do you deny they promised to open our contract early? Do I really need to go on?




How many of my posts are you going to try and take out of context? I never said there were ONLY two issues with AMFA. You had made a grand sweeping statement of how all the AMFA locals were in a power grab, and I refuted it with the truth. There was no west coast fighting between the locals(something you have yet to refute) and the two instances were there were charges between locals, I listed. You keep trying to play this up, like thats what brought AMFA down. Get a clue, it happens in all unions, and to a larger degree in the teamsters. As I directed before, if you don't believe me just check out the last couple of pages of the teamster journal for the latest IRB findings. Thats right, the teamsters so corrupt they're under independent goverment oversight.

As to how they collected enough cards, how many of the lies and promises do you want me to list? These people must be angry about something the ibt did(or did not) do, as they're signing represntational cards





Your sad attempt to down play the card DRIVES (yes plural) is duely noted.

The mechanics at UAL unfortunately are split on who they wish to represent them moving forward. Before the merger was announced the IAM & AMFA were both collecting cards and now that the merger has happened it is indeed a determining factor. As you accurately pointed out the mechanic groups are still separate. What good does it do to trigger an election now only to have to re-run it when the groups merge?

I know its frightening to you die-hard teamsters, but don't worry, once SLI is complete you'll see more of the action you seem to be missing............you did know there are alot of upset CAL mechanics didn't you?

My memory and math were incorrect. 61% of the voting members decided on the Teamsters, and not the 70% I had said. As you linked (thanks, I could not find it) 4,113 voted Teamsters and 2,631 voted AMFA. A sound beating none the less.

As for the rest of your whimper, it is sad to hear we will continue to hold our group back by engaging in yet another representational campaign. This is the part that bothers me most, and my reason for spending so much time here. This back and fourth will never benefit us. I am sure even you can realize this. We are all becoming more and more polarized with each passing card drive. Divided as we are, will continue the companies success. They look forward to the next card drive.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Nice one!! Just to be clear, you're the donkey, right?

Ah and a corresponding lack of reading comprehension I see.

Well lets try again shall we....everyones laughing at you at least you should know why.

my post again

I was just thinking of how your typical teamster inability to deal with the facts reminded me of the Family Guy LMAO!

Heres a hint...the donkey isn't me.

Good Luck!

 

[Anomaly]

Speaking of the game of dodge, you have failed to anwer questions regarding your claim of best return on investment being campaign financing, your above post was the only response to the question about Airline Reps and the ability to recall.

You were bashing AMFA because you falsely claimed they were not elected. Then you claimed that you could not recall another stations rep. So I asked for you to show us where the ibt has what upset you so much. And you failed to answer, and now I know why. I looked into the ibt constitution and guess what I found?

This for one:

General Organizers and International Representatives
shall be appointed by the General President
and while working under his orders shall receive a salary
as determined by the General President and reported to
the General Executive Board. International Auditors
shall be appointed by the General Secretary-Treasurer
and shall receive a salary as determined by the General
Secretary-Treasurer and reported to the General Executive
Board. The total salary of any General Organizer,
International Representative, or International Auditor
shall not exceed that of the General President. General
Organizers and International Auditors appointed after
the 1991 Convention shall not receive compensation or
allowances from any subordinate body

And in addition, when I searched for any recall procedure in the ibt Constitution, I got this:
Search Returned No Results


So just as I suspected, and the reason why you are dodging the questions is simple really.

The ibt has no elections for the reps period because they are appointed, and there is NO RECALL period.

So while you bash on about AMFA regarding elections and recall that did not suit your way, the ibt that you so dearly love has nothing of the sort.

You are just like the TWU stooges, you complain and angst over something related to AMFA and yet the organization that you support doesn't even provide what you are complaining about. You and others always fail to hold the union you support to the same standard you wish to hold AMFA.

As I read back through your postings, I am getting a clear picture of who you claim to be. You were a long time IAM Shop Steward and was upset about the AMFA filing and win. You were one that refused to accept the majority's decision and so most of that chaos that you speak of was coming from you personally because you could not accept what the majority decided.​

You are what I call a snibbler, an industrial union zealot that does not demand from your union what you cannot stand about another. I suspect your professional standards as a mechanic are just as likely suspect too.

During my sanity break from this subject, I went to help out with my Granddaughters school. They were having an end of year party and I was helping at one of the areas near a face painting table. At one point, two children began arguing about the design painted on one of the faces. One thought it meant a bad thing and the other did not. The image was three horizontal lines about an inch long and ¼ inch wide and drawn1/2 inch below the eye. You see the same thing on football players during a game. The issue was the colors. These were Green Yellow and Red. One child was upset because he felt the colors used represented a negative image. The other said it did not and they argued.

Finally, the kid who objected became upset. In a fit, he threw down a straw to a juice box he was holding, called the other kid a “potty face” and walked away. Potty face kid shrugged his shoulders, and ran to do something else. I asked the lady who painted the faces what that was about? She said he asked for a football player type black line under his eye, but being toward the end of the day, she was out of black. She asked if he had another favorite color, he picked Green Yellow and Red. All three colors she had left.

Walking away made me think of you and this page. Not because of anything in particular related to the second grade potty face, but because of your childish approach to this forum.

In life, people will always disagree. I may like cigars, and remark of their sweet and smooth taste. You may not and think they are foul and smelly. Does this make either of us liars, snibblers, zealots, or sub standard mechanics? It is a difference of opinion, nothing more.

My opinion of AMFA at UAL is much different from that of Third Seat Hero’s. He saw the actions of AMFA as acceptable Union politics, I saw them as unorganized chaos. However, we both agree on at least two things. 1; An AMFA rep removed an important LOA from our agreement, and 2; AMFA is no longer our representative. We continue to disagree on the results or byproducts of the two. I am OK with that.

I do not agree with him but could not go so far as to call him a liar. He may interpret circumstances different than I, and may form a completely opposite opinion, but who am I to call him a “potty face” because I cannot get him to agree with my position?

With that said, I have no problem with the Teamster Constitution. I have no problem with appointing the best person rather than voting the most popular. I have no problem with the jurisdiction. I definitely have no problem with the recall language, even though you believe it does not exist.

Just because you cannot find it does not mean recall (removal) does not happen. In fact, a San Francisco BA was removed from his "lifetime appointed position" because the elected President and Executive board believed he was not living up to membership’s expectations. I personally had no issue with him, but still, the guy they hired to replace him is genuinely superb. This second guy does one hell of a good job and I have no problem saying that.

To remove the BA, there was no election needed, no petition, no two year time limit, no campaign. One day he was just gone, and the new guy was there to take over. The new BA is doing a good job.

I admit to being wary of some of the new ideas the IBT brings to the table, but for now at least, I do not have any real problem with most of them.

My one concern that I do wish was different, is that of the location of the Locals. I will admit that for some stations to have to go to another state for a meeting at their "Local" is a bit unconventional. I am not sold on that one. At the same time, AMFA does not have a Local at every one of their stations either. For them too, some members would have to travel to attend a meeting.

People will always disagree. You sir could benefit by learning to live with that.

 

[Anomaly]

You are what I call a snibbler, an industrial union zealot that does not demand from your union what you cannot stand about another. I suspect your professional standards as a mechanic are just as likely suspect too.

Why do you continually call me a zealot?

For one, it would be a 180 from your intended meaning according to the definition of the word.

Zealot (ˈzɛlət) — n any of the members of an extreme Jewish sect or political party that resisted all aspects of Roman rule in Palestine in the 1st century A.D.

Second, I love all Gods creatures, but I am not Jewish.

Be careful with this one.....

 

[Anomaly]

Ah and a corresponding lack of reading comprehension I see.

Well lets try again shall we....everyones laughing at you at least you should know why.

my post again



Heres a hint...the donkey isn't me.

Good Luck!

Once again we differ.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Once again we differ.

Thanks for illustrating my point LOL!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Anomaly,

I ask you for your name because you are so anti-AMFA. You have a different opinion than mine and that is not a problem. But call me silly but if I believe enough in my beliefs to stand in the light I would think you would do the same. But if you prefer the shadows like CIO and hss that is predictable.

 

[Bob Owens]

No doubt that NWA and their allies defeated AMFA at NWA, however mechanics tend to land on their feet and I suppose most of them did as well. I heard a lawyer talking about how one was working in Home depot, but then again maybe thats where he belonged all along? We see many NWA veterans posting here, just as with the EAL IAM Veterans, I dont here any of them saying they should have given in to the company. We keep our tools on wheels for a reason you know. But the IBT has had their share of losses as well. I deeply respected Ron Carey and saw him as a leader with the potential to reverse Labors decline. He kicked UPs' but and he was punished because of it but Hoffa has been less successful as documented in the film "American Standoff" (2002) about the Overnight trucking strike.

Unions must fight, and the leaders must lead and not be spectators, we will lose some battles but thats the price we must be willing to pay. It was the price paid by those who built the labor movement and its the price we must pay to restore it.

Nearly every year I march in the NY labor day Parade, and sadly the Union Bosses dont march, they sit in special bleachers set up for them. To me it simply highlights the disconnect. Did Hoffa JR ever even drive a truck? (and the Excursion doesnt count as a truck, if it doesnt have air brakes its not a truck)

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

95% complete? And it only took nearly 5 years to get to that 95%. Before you say it, neither one of those statements are true. The IBT did not drop the grievance, and AMFA was not only at 95%. It did not take them 5 years either. AMFA did error on staying on top of the outsourcing issue, and the company was able to take advantage of this. At the same time, AMFA actually did improve the language by adding mandatory audits. Unfortunately, they could not afford to pay for these audits themselves and required financial assistance from the company. What type of audit do you expect to get when the group you are auditing is the one paying for the audit? AMFA also added language to the contract to help pay for such items. This money was readily paid by the company to the Union, but it was taken out of funds that would have gone to the membership. How ‘bout them apples? If you are good with that xUT, you can make your own donations. I pay Union dues. I expect the Union to be able to afford to represent me, not take it out of my collective bargaining agreement.

I answer the questions, you just want a different answer.

Have you even read the language?

First off UAL reimburses the union AFTER the audit.

A audit that the CBA called for EVERY YEAR, language that the ibt ignored.

Finally, the language was a first for any mechanics union, the fact that it was AMFA that secured it must just burn you because you obviously haven't thought it through with much effort or success.

$75000 in costs per the CBA

At the time it was negotiated we had aprox 5500 mechanics - $75000/5500 = alittle over $13.50 once a year to conduct an outsourcing audit. WOW BIG SET BACK THERE!

Now if the ibt hadn't been so incompetent in removing the language in their latest cut-and-paste frenzy while destroying our CBA in favor of the CAL agreement, that cost would be shared with aprox 9000 thus lowering that terrible $13.50 to about $8.50

You harp about outsourcing yet you #### about this language, and you marvel at why your credibility is continually challenged.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

You are absolutely correct. AMFA does engage in open negotiations and allows anyone who wants to attend these meetings. The effect of this however is negative, and the company absolutely loves them for this. Through this irresponsible behavior, the company is able to negotiate directly with the membership and gain an advantage. This is possible because the observer is under no order or obligation to keep what he hears private. And they do not. As soon as possible results of the meetings are posted for all, including the company, to see.

Time and time again the company is able to intercept messages to the membership and gauge the Union members position and attitude. The company uses it against the membership knowing exactly what the bottom line is. It is like playing poker with all the cards exposed. When the house has all the money, and can see your cards, how can you win?

The company also monitors forums like this and expects news from the negotiations to be leaked by the observers. In these instances, sometimes too much information can be shared. Sorry to bring up unpopular history, but at NWA the company knew exactly what the Union was planning. Based on this knowledge they made their own preparations. I think the strike at NWA could have gone much differently had the company been caught off guard. As it was, the replacements were trained and ready when AMFA took its members out on strike.

Sometimes private unrestricted talks are beneficial.

And remind me again....what happened during AMFAs first OPEN negotiations with NWA?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

My memory and math were incorrect. 61% of the voting members decided on the Teamsters, and not the 70% I had said. As you linked (thanks, I could not find it) 4,113 voted Teamsters and 2,631 voted AMFA. A sound beating none the less.

As for the rest of your whimper, it is sad to hear we will continue to hold our group back by engaging in yet another representational campaign. This is the part that bothers me most, and my reason for spending so much time here. This back and fourth will never benefit us. I am sure even you can realize this. We are all becoming more and more polarized with each passing card drive. Divided as we are, will continue the companies success. They look forward to the next card drive.

I see....so where was this concern about polarizing the membership when you were busy campaigning for the teamsters when AMFA was our representative?

Obviously you felt justified then, yet now you're concerned about the affects.

Sincerely I do understand your point, but I for one will not stand by for the remainder of my career at UAL with this sort of mediocre representation. Perhaps if the ibt hadn't lied and broken their promises things might be different.

Either way, I'm sure well see whether I'm in the majority or minority.