A.M.F.A. support at the line stations?

[ThirdSeatHero]

Good first step. The fact that AMFA was replaced by the Teamsters simply can not be argued. I am glad you finally admit it. It is the excuses you make that keep me around.

You swear the only reason AMFA lost was because we were all lied to by organizers. Truck driving organizers if I remember correctly. I have three little issues with that.

1. You expect all of us to believe that either us UAL mechanics were too stupid to comprehend that we were being lied to during a representational election or the truck driving organizers were such skilled story tellers they managed to dupe some 70% of us. I have a hard time believing that. And please don't blame the Indy Mechanics on furlough for the overwhelming decision to replace AMFA. .

2. Lets say your right for the moment and the IBT ran a dirty rotten shady lie riddled campaign; how did the IBT get enough cards in the first place? Before we get to that, in most of your responses to my posts you dismiss my accusations and opinions of bad AMFA representation as lies. In one you countered that there were only two issues with AMFA. You are steadfast in declaring that AMFA was doing their job well as the true democratically elected Union by and for mechanics. Although you have not stated it, I hope you can agree that many of us had been fighting for years to get AMFA on property. Our hard work finally paid off July 13, 2003 when AMFA won the representational vote. April 1, 2008, less than five years later, AMFA looses everything so many worked so hard to get. Do you really expect everyone to believe it was all because of a well played Teamster lie during an apparently exceptional campaign run by a bunch of truck drivers? And these same truck drivers were able to convince 70% of the membership to get out of a true mechanics Union and join a bunch of warehouse workers? If AMFA was doing such a good job, as you say, how then were a few mechanics able to collect more than enough cards to hold an election in a mere fraction of the time it took us to get enough cards for an AMFA election? Your facts just do not add up. The truth is AMFA terrified us. The organization turned out to be irresponsible, and dangerous to our futures.

3. Again, let's go back to the Teamsters lied theory. Where then is AMFA now? Are you the only one who figured it out? Truly more of us should have seen it by now and if i know this group like I think I do after 27 years, we should have one hell of a card drive going on for anybody but this miserable lying group. Where is the card drive? Why are these clowns still here?? As far as I know there is no active organized card drive on UAL. Don't blame the merger, because we are still two separate mechanic groups under the NMB with two separate contracts. There are a few guys out there with cards in hand, and then there are those other former AMFA leader confused soles who joined with the IAM, but overall, no card drive. Whats your answer to that. Are you waiting for the big moment? That time came and went with the first TA.

Call me a liar, say it is a smear campaign, but the unchallengeable truth remains that we dropped the Association philosophies in an astonishing short time. There has to be another explanation besides the IBT LIED. Come on.....??

NO, to answer your simple yes or no question. I am on this board getting verbally beaten up (it dies not bother me) because I disagree with your casual dismissal of events. I can keep my cool in the anonymity, control, and comfort of my home knowing my tool box will not be destroyed while I am away. But I could not do what those BA's do in the real world. I do not have the patience, nor the control to hold my temper with such foolishness. Besides, I would have to give up some easy overtime. I am not even a steward. That also was too much of a headache. I am simply a mechanic who is satisfied with my representation. So much that I am willing to speak out to this forum in favor of them. I keep somewhat involved and go to an occasional meeting, but that is enough for me and more than most. People like you are now so desperate to get back in, I am not sure how far you will go. My brawling days are behind me. I'll leave that to the younger men.

The reason I asked about your history as a supervisor; Years ago there was a mechanic near my doc with a mostly homemade tool box. There was a stainless steel decorative cover on it with the inscription; Third Seat Hero. This guy later became a supervisor with a bad reputation. Although the tool box is long gone, I believe this guy is still at UAL, and still in management. Some of the details and inside knowledge of your other posts had me very suspicious. I was just checking. You never know ...

And yet another text book example of teamster twisted reasoning, tortured logic, and outright lies.

Good first step. The fact that AMFA was replaced by the Teamsters simply can not be argued. I am glad you finally admit it. It is the excuses you make that keep me around.

"finally admit it"??? Where did I ever deny it?

Now before I break down your "three little issues" there is a matter of one big outright lie you repeatedly try and base your issues on, and that's the 70% of the membership you keep referring to. Where'd you come up with that number? A simple review of the NMB certification clearly shows the teamsters DID NOT have support of 70% of the eligible UAL membership. Hell, take away those who didn't bother to vote and the teamsters still didn't carry 70%

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2008/35n033.pdf

Check those numbers.....switch 742 teamster votes the other way and its a whole new ballgame.

After the continuing mediocre representation, broken promises, and those oh so pesky lies the ibt told during the campaign, you really think the ibt would garner the same number of votes?

Okay, onto your "issues"

1. You expect all of us to believe that either us UAL mechanics were too stupid to comprehend that we were being lied to during a representational election or the truck driving organizers were such skilled story tellers they managed to dupe some 70% of us. I have a hard time believing that. And please don't blame the Indy Mechanics on furlough for the overwhelming decision to replace AMFA.

Whoever said the UAL mechanics were stupid? I certainly never did. I said they were lied to and they were. Do you deny the teamsters promised the UAL mechanics a double vesting pension via the WCTPP, and that this promise was a major selling point of the ibt campaign? Do you deny they promised to open our contract early? Do I really need to go on?

2. Lets say your right for the moment and the IBT ran a dirty rotten shady lie riddled campaign; how did the IBT get enough cards in the first place? Before we get to that, in most of your responses to my posts you dismiss my accusations and opinions of bad AMFA representation as lies. In one you countered that there were only two issues with AMFA. You are steadfast in declaring that AMFA was doing their job well as the true democratically elected Union by and for mechanics. Although you have not stated it, I hope you can agree that many of us had been fighting for years to get AMFA on property. Our hard work finally paid off July 13, 2003 when AMFA won the representational vote. April 1, 2008, less than five years later, AMFA looses everything so many worked so hard to get. Do you really expect everyone to believe it was all because of a well played Teamster lie during an apparently exceptional campaign run by a bunch of truck drivers? And these same truck drivers were able to convince 70% of the membership to get out of a true mechanics Union and join a bunch of warehouse workers? If AMFA was doing such a good job, as you say, how then were a few mechanics able to collect more than enough cards to hold an election in a mere fraction of the time it took us to get enough cards for an AMFA election? Your facts just do not add up. The truth is AMFA terrified us. The organization turned out to be irresponsible, and dangerous to our futures.

How many of my posts are you going to try and take out of context? I never said there were ONLY two issues with AMFA. You had made a grand sweeping statement of how all the AMFA locals were in a power grab, and I refuted it with the truth. There was no west coast fighting between the locals(something you have yet to refute) and the two instances were there were charges between locals, I listed. You keep trying to play this up, like thats what brought AMFA down. Get a clue, it happens in all unions, and to a larger degree in the teamsters. As I directed before, if you don't believe me just check out the last couple of pages of the teamster journal for the latest IRB findings. Thats right, the teamsters so corrupt they're under independent goverment oversight.

As to how they collected enough cards, how many of the lies and promises do you want me to list? These people must be angry about something the ibt did(or did not) do, as they're signing represntational cards

3. Again, let's go back to the Teamsters lied theory. Where then is AMFA now? Are you the only one who figured it out? Truly more of us should have seen it by now and if I know this group like I think I do after 27 years, we should have one hell of a card drive going on for anybody but this miserable lying group. Where is the card drive? Why are these clowns still here?? As far as I know there is no active organized card drive on UAL. Don't blame the merger, because we are still two separate mechanic groups under the NMB with two separate contracts. There are a few guys out there with cards in hand, and then there are those other former AMFA leader confused soles who joined with the IAM, but overall, no card drive. Whats your answer to that. Are you waiting for the big moment? That time came and went with the first TA.

Your sad attempt to down play the card DRIVES (yes plural) is duely noted.

The mechanics at UAL unfortunately are split on who they wish to represent them moving forward. Before the merger was announced the IAM & AMFA were both collecting cards and now that the merger has happened it is indeed a determining factor. As you accurately pointed out the mechanic groups are still separate. What good does it do to trigger an election now only to have to re-run it when the groups merge?

I know its frightening to you die-hard teamsters, but don't worry, once SLI is complete you'll see more of the action you seem to be missing............you did know there are alot of upset CAL mechanics didn't you?

 

[AA89]

Teamsters Constitution

Jurisdiction
Section 1(a). This organization has jurisdiction over all workers including, without limitation, teamsters, chauffeurs, warehousemen, and helpers; all who are employed on or around horses, harness, carriages, automobiles,
trucks, trailers, aircraft, and all other vehicles hauling, carrying, or conveying freight, merchandise, or materials; automotive sales, service, and maintenance employees; garage workers and service station employees; warehousemen of all kinds employed in warehouse
work, stockmen, shipping room employees, and loaders,
that is, persons engaged in loading or unloading freight,
merchandise, or other materials on, to, or from any type
of vehicle; all classes of dairy employees, inside and outside,
including salesmen, brewery and soft drink workers;
workers employed in ice cream plants; all other
workers employed in the manufacture, processing, sale,
and distribution of food, milk, dairy, and other products;
all truck terminal employees; cannery workers; all craft
or classes of airline and rail employees, including locomotive
engineers, trainmen, rail traffic controllers, and
maintenance of way workers; office, technical, and professional
employees; health care employees; agricultural
employees; public employees; all classifications of
employees in the graphic communications industry; law
enforcement personnel and industrial employees.

Another GROUP HUG union...........did they leave anyone out? I didn't see burger flippers in there...........

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I second that (stand and applaud) Third Seat Hero has a remarkably uncanny way of always seeing the glass half full. He reminds me of that Monty Python movie where the knight has his arms and legs chopped off but still wants to fight. "It's just a flesh wound..." LMAO : ) .....where's AMFA?

Wow, Ironic.

I was just thinking of how your typical teamster inability to deal with the facts reminded me of the Family Guy LMAO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

 

[xUT]

Are you just making this stuff up as you go?




Wow! In a word....WRONG!

There was never a west coast power struggle. SFO was the largest Local by any measure, and had an incredible working relationship with SEA, which by the way was an Alaska Airlines controlled local. LAX shut down long before the ibt came on the property and the only issue if you even want to call it that was the fact that AMFA National had the LAX members absorbed into the DEN Local. It became a running gag whenever a former LAX member would visit the SFO local, they would always ask us to adopt them.

Only two major issues between locals ever came to a head. An SFO Airline Rep brought members of the ORD grievance committee up on charges, and a member in IAD brought charges against the SFO LEC.

They were all handled through and per the AMFA constitution.

Now if you want to compare dirty laundry, the teamsters beat AMFA hands down. Just check out the last few pages of the teamster journal for the latest "load".




Yet another splendid example of your ignorance or perhaps just another paltry attempt at an outright lie.

We had many many elections, and I'm quite sure you know this

The UAL ACAC was recalled by the membership.

An SFO Airline Rep was recalled for the very issue (removal of LOA 74-1) you cited.


Oh BTW if that was your last straw.....how come you aren't trying to get rid of the ibt? They signed an LOA with United granting seniority rights to SAMC controllers that was never ratified by the membership and we weren't told til weeks after it was signed. A change to our contract without a vote of the membership, another lie from the ibt, as they claimed during their campaign that was something they would NEVER do.

But the IBT can do that Brother...

 

[Buck]

The IBT organizers on on the TWU base. I ask why the TWU was assisting the IBT to oust AMFA in SFO 4years ago, they had no idea that that had occurred.

The TWU will go to any length to protect their dues collection agency.

Now the payback has arrived. Finally getting the passive membership to do your dirty work for you.

Any of you ask your TWU connection if there is any truth to them helping the Teamsters in the past.

And you Teamster organizers,you will not get the AA line stations, what are you going to do.

 

[xUT]

Wow, Ironic.

I was just thinking of how your typical teamster inability to deal with the facts reminded me of the Family Guy LMAO!

I have been perusing the IBT 'team' at UAL and I remember the IAM 'team'.
Rich, Dan, John, Mickey, etc...
All now IBT...



B) xUT

 

[lineguy43]

I read some postings earlier that the TWU was under gag order. With AMFA you would not have been. AMFA would have had seats available for the membership to attend. This way you can sit there and watch exactly how your nego team is doing in action, as well as paticipate in the nego proccess. Can you do this with the TWU? No. Can you do this with the corrupted teamsters? NO. Also with AMFA, the membership votes for all nego members who are to be representing the membership at the table. TWU? No. Teamsters? No. All I can say is if you all want the same secret nego behind closed doors going on, and continue with these union presidents enacting contracts without a membership vote then you just keep the TWU.

For you AAers sitting on the fence, I say this. Vote in AMFA (you will not be disappointed as long as you all vote in the correct leadership to run AMFA) try them for 2 years, if you are not 100% better informed and better involved with them, simply recall the officers not working to your satisfaction. With AMFA you can do this, with TWU or teamsters you cannot. You are stuck with whomever was appointed. Never will I say AMFA is perfect, no union is. However, at least with AMFA the membership can make changes and tweaks fix the items that are not working in the memberships eyes. You cannot do this with anyone else. At AMFA the membership is who makes changes to the constitution, by-laws, local leadership, National leadership, each and every officer, nego committees, who we bring in as the experts, ASAP committee, ect... ect... The membership runs the union. The membership also votes on officers pay. Example: At SWA certain positions within AMFA are paid 200.00 per month above their current salary, not 100,000-200,000 plus for the union positions. Our membership also has to vote when the local wants spend more than 300.00 bucks. When we fired the teamsters, local 19 was having constant negative monthly ballances, since AMFA has came in, we have maintained a positive ballance each and every month.

I know this got a little long, but I think it was needed. When you guys vote AMFA in, DO NOT vote for the TWU guys to run it for you. This will be suiside. They would run it in the ground on purpose to say, "see, we told you guys not to go with AMFA" Look around right now at the folks promoting AMFA and get these guys that you know will make good leaders into those positions. Get involved, you guys will be amazed at what all the membership will have to vote on once you do bring AMFA in. This is how AMFA works though, from the membership, not appointed buddy-buddy system. Good luck to you guys, I really hope you all will give AMFA a shot, you will not be disappointed. 99% of us at SWA are extremely we fired the teamsters and brought in AMFA, never looking back...

If these AA guys don't vote out the TWu they deserve what they get I have no sympathy. The TWu has screwed this group in even the best of times. I admit we were the first large airline to give AMFA a shot but NW pulled out the stops to bust AMFA but I think a lot was learned from it. I still think AMFA is the best bet for airline mechanics. Hope these guys at AA get their head out of the sand.

 

[xUT]

I have been perusing the IBT 'team' at UAL and I remember the IAM 'team'.
Rich, Dan, John, Mickey, etc...
All now IBT...

B) xUT

Lunch with the Master

B) xUT

 

[xUT]

Lunch with the Master

B) xUT

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/372305/
B)

 

[Buck]

Can anyone comment on whether or not the IBT supports OWS? ( Occupy Wall Street )

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

There has been an AMFA drive at UAL since I started in the mid 80's. I helped in that for some time. In fact, soon after AMFA started in 1962, there has been a campaign on some level to have AMFA as our representatives. It is no great stretch that the die hearts should continue on that journey now.

As for the fear mongering, that is not my intention. I am simply commenting on the statements I have seen on this and other posts on this forum. Should I accuse you of using fear and smear tactics with your comments on back room behind door meetings? Pot/Kettle Pittbull. I have been a member of AMFA after years and years of campaigning and was sadly disappointed. There are back room deals with AMFA too, and because it is so easy to vote in and out, the situation was sometimes worse. Sometimes the truth is a scary thing when our expectations exceed reality. Sorry if I frighten you.

Your argument on the Pilots Union is a non comparison. While there are some third party Pilots, even for the price of a ticket I do not believe the flying public is willing to swallow this idea. The vast number of aircraft mechanics in this country both licensed and non licensed, Union non-Union is what makes the association small in comparison to the number in the overall employee pool. Even if both of our groups joined with them, our numbers would be unsubstantial. Before you say "we need to start somewhere", I'll say we tried that, and AMFA was not the final answer we expected.

As for a solution I have none for you save one. Airline employed mechanics are an endangered species. IAM, AMFA, TWU or IBT, we need to realize that the vendors are out there quietly and quickly growing. Two of these Unions work well together, IBT and TWU. We spend too much time fighting among the rest. You want me to say it? Her it is. I would like to see all airline employed mechanics fall under one single bargaining unit. Of the three I have been involved in, the Teamsters have disappointed me the least (I do not have experience with the TWU but apparently according to this site at least, it may not be a popular choice either).

One last thing, as much as I disagree with AMFA, I respect their members, and my brothers in arms enough not to desicrate their name with small letters. Simple respect is a cheap offering that pays huge dividends. You do not have to like me or agree with my opinion, but trying to belittle other groups in such petty ways does not help your cause.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Anomaly,

At the bottom of your post above you say I don't have to like you or agree with you. How can I like you if I don't know who you are?

You claim to be a UA mechanic. Okay, who are you?

 

[whoop whoop]

The SCABsters promised CAL they would never try to organize the ramp!!! They organized the ramp, then lost them 8 months later.. HAHAHA!!!!! ( first time I ever was on the side of the SCAB I.A.M.)


The SCABsters tried to tell CAL the company was going to get rid of the defined pension to try and scare the membership into their failed Western Conference PP. Not even 2 months later CAL announced they are depositing something like 200 million into the plan!!!!!!!


The SCABsters decided for CAL to take a pay cut when we had an out not to or at least re-vote!! Convenient since they received raises that year... and CAL was not in bankruptcy!!!!!!

While organizing UAL , the SCABsters picketed UAL hubs about outsourcing A&P jobs, yet let CAL outsource more than 65% of CAL's work!!!!!!!

The SCABsters lost some of their members from Waste Management out in Cali during a strike. They struck a deal with the company to keep the scabs and not return the strikers.

The SCABsters at CAL, now the new UA have at least 5 SCABS as business Agents and above.....

A&P's are not even 1% of the SCABsters.... do you really think they are concerned about you?????

The SCABsters crossed the Pickett line of fellow A&P's at NWA..... now they want to represent A&P's????? Laughable!!!!


The SCABsters have never lead us in anything but the spiral down. They have never negotiated tops of industry in anything for the A&P's, they have just played mediocre at best...... Wait........... They have lead in something for us..... OUTSOURCING of our profession.

SWA before AMFA
UPS
CAL
FRONTIER

All with the lowest rates of mechanics to planes. All with the highest rates of outsourcing of maintenance.

AMFA might of won the strike with NWA if the IAM and their corporate equals, the SCABsters would not of helped NWA break the mechanics.

AMFA is the only choice for the A&P. We control our own destiny.

Ask yourselves one thing, why does the SCABsters really care about us and our plight? They can't even get their own trucking industry in order. We are a revenue stream for them, that is ALL. They are not a union, they are a corporation and we are their product.
Same goes for the TWU and the iam.

 

[whoop whoop]

One more...... http://tdu.org/

SCABsters, the only corporation (oh sorry), union that has an internal organization made up of members trying to change the corporation (sorry sorry), union from within. They have been at it for over 20 years.

Ask yourself, why would any one want to even get involved with a corporation (my mistake), union that is so divided like the SCABsters?

 

[Anomaly]

The SCABsters promised CAL they would never try to organize the ramp!!! They organized the ramp, then lost them 8 months later.. HAHAHA!!!!! ( first time I ever was on the side of the SCAB I.A.M.)


The SCABsters tried to tell CAL the company was going to get rid of the defined pension to try and scare the membership into their failed Western Conference PP. Not even 2 months later CAL announced they are depositing something like 200 million into the plan!!!!!!!


The SCABsters decided for CAL to take a pay cut when we had an out not to or at least re-vote!! Convenient since they received raises that year... and CAL was not in bankruptcy!!!!!!

While organizing UAL , the SCABsters picketed UAL hubs about outsourcing A&P jobs, yet let CAL outsource more than 65% of CAL's work!!!!!!!

The SCABsters lost some of their members from Waste Management out in Cali during a strike. They struck a deal with the company to keep the scabs and not return the strikers.

The SCABsters at CAL, now the new UA have at least 5 SCABS as business Agents and above.....

A&P's are not even 1% of the SCABsters.... do you really think they are concerned about you?????

The SCABsters crossed the Pickett line of fellow A&P's at NWA..... now they want to represent A&P's????? Laughable!!!!


The SCABsters have never lead us in anything but the spiral down. They have never negotiated tops of industry in anything for the A&P's, they have just played mediocre at best...... Wait........... They have lead in something for us..... OUTSOURCING of our profession.

SWA before AMFA
UPS
CAL
FRONTIER

All with the lowest rates of mechanics to planes. All with the highest rates of outsourcing of maintenance.

AMFA might of won the strike with NWA if the IAM and their corporate equals, the SCABsters would not of helped NWA break the mechanics.

AMFA is the only choice for the A&P. We control our own destiny.

Ask yourselves one thing, why does the SCABsters really care about us and our plight? They can't even get their own trucking industry in order. We are a revenue stream for them, that is ALL. They are not a union, they are a corporation and we are their product.
Same goes for the TWU and the iam.

What or who is a SCABster?

"The SCABsters crossed the Pickett line of fellow A&P's at NWA....." By this, can I presume you are a former NWA mechanic?