A letrer from USAPA's Law Firm (EAST THREAD 8/17-24)

[Bear96]

What I find questionable is that whomever paid for the Seham opinion permitted the OP to post it publicly. Generally, when I write legal opinions, my clients are in no hurry to publish them on an internet board. Gotta wonder if it was published by the OP with permission of the group?

Yes, it is very odd to post a letter from your own lawyers which states your lawsuit stands no chance, in a forum that can easily be read by the other party.

But, that is USA320pilot. He truly seems to think the East position is legally sound, so maybe he doesn't even realize some of the things he posts and the cases he refers to actually hurts their cause even more.

 

[AWA320]

Roger I re-watched Forrest Gump with a lady friend who noted during the scene when Jenny throws rocks at the house she was abused in as a child, and Forrest notes "I guess sometimes there just aren't enough rocks"... that I should consider carrying a huge bagfull to the next local Alpo meeting as good therapy

Were you able to stay awake for the whole movie old timer?? What are they showing at the retirement home today the green mile

 

[AWA320]

Sigh..we're back to being "sheep" again? You REALLY should work on developing an imagination ...or..even the ability for cognitive process .

Wow such big words you have there you know we are not that far along on our books yet maybe by sixth grade we will use words like "cognitive process".

PS: As per "sheep"?: When's the last time you actually argued with ANY of your beloved MEC goons, or anyone else up at Alpo?..which you seem to view only with the eyes of an adoring child, rapt in awe and admiration. You "sound" like a classical example of one who's personal motto = Alpo?...The Holy West MEC?...."you just follow no questions asked!!!

Last time I conversed with a member/s the MEC? Last night, in fact I am intouch with them everyday!! Maybe if you took the time to get involved rather than flying your trips and going home you would be better informed too !!!

 

[EastUS]

Last time I conversed with a member/s the MEC? Last night, in fact I am intouch with them everyday!! Maybe if you took the time to get involved rather than flying your trips and going home you would be better informed too !!!

As usual..you've missed the point = Have you ever actually ARGUED with these Holy Men that you "stay in touch with"?...or do you blindly lap up everything they say like a "sheep"? Is there ANYTHING that you find disagreement with within the ALpo ranks...EVER? It hardly seems so to the casual observer :down:

AWA320: "Were you able to stay awake for the whole movie old timer??" Yeah..I like Forrest Gump

AWA320:"Maybe if you took the time to get involved rather than flying your trips.." Someone has to actually WORK AWA320..we can't all sit around pulling ALpo circle..etc,
Then too? = It's tough enough, and is time consuming just getting past the mean nurse at the retirement home just to go to work. Perhaps if your sacred Alpoids actually flew some trips themselves...you would ALL be "better informed".

AWA320: "in fact I am intouch with them everyday!! " You must really be dying to climb aboard the Alpo "retirement" ship yourself then. You think ill of "flying your trips and going home"..which is the actually useful portion of our job description...and you make time to be "in touch with them everyday"..speaks volumes for your priorities. It's clearly more important to play Alpo, and harrumph around than to work...interesting. Small wonder as to your overall outlook then, and no wonder at your perception of that august body as being a properly sacred cow.

AWA320: "Wow such big words you have there you know we are not that far along on our books yet maybe by sixth grade we will use words like "cognitive process"
I won't hold my breath.

 

[P51Pilot]

Yes, it is very odd to post a letter from your own lawyers which states your lawsuit stands no chance, in a forum that can easily be read by the other party.

But, that is USA320pilot. He truly seems to think the East position is legally sound, so maybe he doesn't even realize some of the things he posts and the cases he refers to actually hurts their cause even more.

Which is an argument for decertification and taking it out of ALPA's hands, is it not? Thee whole point of the letter was that seniority does not belong to ALPA or any union and is a creature of your CBA, a negotiated thing. Since no one knows where ALPA stands or what they are going to do or not do, take destiny into your own hands. It's pretty clear where USAPA stands. The cases stated were germane to the arguments of the ineffectiveness of the current lawsuit filed by the East "ALPA" MEC and their likely out come, and what is available through negiotiating with a new union, a new constitution, and commitment from the union what seniority provisions will be contained in any new CBA.

For being such a genius, I am surprised you had to ask the initial question. Why would the lawyers of a new union write a letter stating how effective and how strong EAST "ALPA's" current legal stance and case are, when their whole purpose is advising the certification effort of a new union?

 

[EastUS]

Which is an argument for decertification and taking it out of ALPA's hands, is it not?

Indeed = Some potential for success vs "no chance" is enough for most who are concerned herein.

 

[AWA320]

As usual..you've missed the point = Have you ever actually argued with these Holy Men that you "stay in touch with"?...or do you blindly lap up everything they say like a "sheep"? Is there ANYTHING that you find disagreement with within the ALpo ranks...EVER? It hardly seems so to the casual observer :down:

Hahah if you only knew East US if you only knew! Yes I argue with them all the time! Our views don't always agree!!

AWA320: "Were you able to stay awake for the whole movie old timer??" Yeah..I like Forrest Gump

Me too one of our favorites

AWA320:"Maybe if you took the time to get involved rather than flying your trips.." Someone has to actually WORK AWA320..we can't all sit around pulling ALpo circle..etc,

I work all the time East and still find the time to stay involved!! Not one of those who views my union membership as a spectator sport

Then too? = It's tough enough, and is time consuming just getting past the mean nurse at the retirement home just to go to work. Perhaps if your sacred Alpoids actually flew some trips themselves...you would ALL be "better informed".

Hey that's on your side of the fence our reps and officers do fly trips. You have a recall process and you should have used it!!!

AWA320: "in fact I am intouch with them everyday!! " You must really be dying to climb aboard the Alpo "retirement" ship yourself then. You think ill of "flying your trips and going home"..which is the actually useful portion of our job description...and you make time to be "in touch with them everyday"..speaks volumes for your priorities. It's clearly more important to play Alpo, and harrumph around than to work...interesting. Small wonder as to your overall outlook then, and no wonder at your perception of that august body as being a properly sacred cow

No I don't think ill of going home in fact the opposite would be true, I just feel that in order to get anything at all out of the union I must make my presence known!

AWA320: "Wow such big words you have there you know we are not that far along on our books yet maybe by sixth grade we will use words like "cognitive process"
I won't hold my breath.

I agree not a good idea for someone your age!!

 

[EastUS]

AWA20: "Hey that's on your side of the fence our reps and officers do fly trips"

REALLY??..and how current are your MEC guys?

AWA30: "You have a recall process and you should have used it!!!"

We're working on a large scale "recall" as we speak.

AWA3220: "I just feel that in order to get anything at all out of the union I must make my presence known!"

No argument there. Even throwing a "union" out takes effort. PS: Do let us all know if/when you, or any of us actually "get anything at all out of the union"...ANYTHING.

 

[ussnark]

I won't hold my breath.

I wonder if he is on the AWA MEC.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Reasons for a Senior Pilot to “Send in Their Cardâ€￾

I'd like to address the senior pilots. Since May, you've probably been morally outraged by the Nicolau debacle and frustrated at the lack of progress on contract improvements. You hear the calls to send in your card, but you're senior and weren't directly harmed by Nicolau. You may be honestly wondering: "What should I do?"

I suggest you think about your union as an agent helping you manage your career. It's a similar relationship to an agent managing an actor's or athlete's career. No matter how good an actor or athlete you are, your success is still highly dependant on that agent.

Now think about which agent would best represent YOUR career. I'll present some past, present and future issues relating directly to ALPA's ability to perform as your agent. In doing so, I think the agent analogy makes a strong, rational case for why a senior pilot should support a representational election and indeed should strongly support a replacement union.


**ALPA has done an arguably poor job in the PAST

Look at your career. You've been represented by ALPA. Look at the careers of pilots at American, Southwest and AirTran. Each of those carriers has a dedicated, in-house union. Pilots represented by in-house unions have simply fared better than those represented by ALPA. Results matter.

Look at the Nicolau debacle. ALPA's flawed merger policy led directly to a flawed award and ALPA International apparently isn't going to fix it. It's threatening everyone's career and is directly costing you pay raises you should have had by now. This is an ALPA-caused problem. Again, results matter.

**ALPA's organization conflicts with your PRESENT needs

ALPA's structure and organization was formed when the industry was regulated. The regulated environment was characterized by…

- routes and fares set by government
- no price competition between carriers
- level economic playing field
- no outsourcing

This led to pattern bargaining and let ALPA act with a unity of purpose. For the most part, what was good or one was indeed good for all. A national union made sense and the pilots prospered. However, deregulation changed everything. Under deregulation we have…

- Cut-throat economic competition
- Other ALPA carriers are direct competitors – they benefit if we
fail
- Significant outsourced regional presence

As a result, each carrier's pilot group has widely divergent needs – one size does not fit all. This has led to enormous conflicts of interest within ALPA directly impacting ALPA's ability to act in your best interest. In fact, conflict with United pilots caused the merger policy to be changed from date-of-hire in the first place.

Conflict with America West pilots is preventing the award from being fixed. Also keep in mind the letter writing campaigns to Congress carried on by both United and Delta pilots against us. These conflicts are an iinherent consequence of a national union and are harmful to your career.

The next ALPA conflict on the horizon is between mainline pilots and regional pilots. Current mainline contracts at USAirways and elsewhere limit the scope of regional flying by both equipment size and number. The regional pilots naturally chafe at these restrictions. For now, the major pilots outnumber the regionals within ALPA by a ratio of 30,000 to 16,200, however the regionals are growing rapidly as the mainlines shrink. In the not too distant future, regional pilots will have the votes to dominate ALPA. Think about the implications.

In addition to the inter-pilot conflicts in ALPA there is conflict between the MEC and ALPA International. Legally speaking, your bargaining agent is ALPA International, not strictly your MEC. Furthermore, your MEC reps have legal responsibility to ALPA International that limits their options to do what's best for you, for example, they cannot advocate replacing ALPA.

The final category of conflicts concerns ALPA's cadre of professional advisors; legal, economic, investment bankers etc. In many cases, these advisors are far more obligated to the needs of ALPA, than to the needs of you or USAirways.

**ALPA Constitution and By-laws conflict with your PRESENT needs

At least several aspects of ALPA's Constitution and By-Laws are dysfunctional and harmful to you.

Membership Ratification is essentially at ALPA's discretion. You may or may not get to vote on matters of importance to you – remember the pension termination!

In extreme cases, ALPA International can takeover some or all of the functions of your MEC at any time by putting the MEC into receivership. In receivership, ALPA International has the power to sign agreements with the company on your behalf, not only without membership ratification, but completely bypassing your MEC as well.

Although at one time receivership was only considered a distantly remote possibility, the current ntractable differences between East and West pilot groups may bring receivership under serious consideration. At the very least, the mere threat of receivership constrains your MEC and limits their options.

The ALPA Roll Call Vote rules have caused considerable political strife over the years. Although originally ntended as a means to approximate majority rule, its use in practice often seems to have the opposite result. The Roll Call Vote rules are a continual impediment to good representation leaving one in frequent oubt as to whether the majority has prevailed.

**ALPA will likely harm your career further in the FUTURE

There will probably be more airline consolidation. Existing ALPA merger policy with Nicolau as a precedent should be scary, even for senior pilots.

There will be another crisis of some sort. There always is. The next one might be a recession or financial crisis, another terrorist act against aviation, an oil crisis, or something we can't even imagine yet. You and our bargaining agent will get dragged into this. And when that happens, ALPA's constitution and bylaws will get in the way - think about ALPA's Roll Call provision and lack of mandatory membership ratification. ALPA International's structure will get in the way - remember ALPA International has final say over enything we do on this property. And ALPA International's massive conflicts of interest will guarantee your needs will be subjugated to the needs of others. You will get the short end of the stick. Again.

**Your career needs a better agent

In conclusion, your career desperately needs a better agent. You need a bargaining agent without the excess baggage. You need and deserve a bargaining agent acting solely on your behalf.

Your career needs an in-house union as soon as possible. Further delay only gives more opportunity for hose conflicts of interest and constitutional problems to harm you further. Please send in your card today.

Sincerely,

XXXX XXXXXX

DOH 1981
Seniority Number 605

 

[Bear96]

Which is an argument for decertification and taking it out of ALPA's hands, is it not? . . . . The cases stated were germane to the arguments of the ineffectiveness of the current lawsuit filed by the East "ALPA" MEC and their likely out come . . .

Yes, obviously, the letter argued for decertification, because that is apparently how these lawyers make their money -- by convincing pilots to get rid of ALPA. The post of mine you are quoting, however, was not a comment about how this firm's legal advice supports or does not support an argument for getting rid of ALPA. Rather it was a comment on the wisdom of USA320pilot posting the legal basis for why the lawsuit filed by East will not be successful.

. . . and what is available through negiotiating with a new union, a new constitution, and commitment from the union what seniority provisions will be contained in any new CBA.

Again, I find it interesting how the letter stopped short of coming out and clearly stating that this firm's opinion is that getting rid of ALPA will permit a redo of the the East/West seniority integration or permit everyone to pretend the Nicolau award never happened. You appear to be reading into it something that is not actually there, which is probably by design.

 

[EastUS]

You appear to be reading into it something that is not actually there, which is probably by design.

Naturally..it's from a law firm

 

[Junebug172]

REALLY??..and how current are your MEC guys?

All of our MEC Officers are required to maintain currency.

And they are actually productive meaning they don't waste money on frivolous lawsuits designed only to distract from their incompetence.

 

[EastUS]

All of our MEC Officers are required to maintain currency.

And they are actually productive meaning they don't waste money on frivolous lawsuits designed only to distract from their incompetence.

"And they are actually productive" Oh REALLY?..Kindly toss out their flight hours for the last year then

As for "incompetence"? = Given the latest Alpo manufactured nightmare..I'm fine with a blanket assumption of that being the case with Alpo in general.

From another post that seems appropriate here:
PS: I'm clear on why you guys out west now appear so pleased with Alpo..You've had so little experience with that noble organization, and all you've seen is the St Nic award...and are too busy salivating away to understand what the obvious consequences have been/will be. If you've paid ANY attention...you'll kindly at least observe that things ain't going so well for both east and west at present. Hmmm...pilot groups at "war"...no potential for better work/pay/benefits within the forseeable future...Gee: Thanks Alpo..you guys continue to do great things for the membership.

 

[Junebug172]

"And they are actually productive" Oh REALLY?..Kindly toss out their flight hours for the last year then

See, that's where you're disconnect is. Those MEC Officers are in there because they were elected to run the union and make decisions on a daily basis.

You get to go home after a 4 day trip and forget about work for a while, but these guys are working 6, sometimes 7 days at a time. It was non-stop for me when I was in that office and when I resigned, the calls still kept coming.

When they get into that office, their primary concern becomes the union, not flying the line.

Amazing how pilots #### and moan about these guys not flying the line regularly, but when something happens, guess who they go to first.

The hypocrisy!!!