A letrer from USAPA's Law Firm (EAST THREAD 8/17-24)

[Pi brat]

Yes, but you never heard such words from me. I didn't save anybody's job. The pilots of AWA and USAirways had nothing to do with the financial conditions or dealings of our employers.

Thanks, I agree and good luck with your lawsuit. I think when you feel that your union has not represented you fairly you should take the steps to get what you deserve.

 

[ussnark]

1. The new union adopts a bylaw or constitutional provision which states, "We don't like how pilots were paid when they were ALPA. It is our policy that all pilots should be paid at least $1m/yr." Does that immediately obligate management to bargain with the new union over pilot pay, even though the current CBA doesn't become amendable for two more years?

Examples 1, 2 and 3 involve negotiations between union and company, therefore are subject to negotiation. If the new union dislikes the pay, it continues until renegotiated.

Example 4 involves something done in arrears, which, again, is not applicable. As the award has not yet been presented by ALPA, and a "negotiable" joint contract has not been finalized, much less voted on, all four examples you gave are about something else entirely.

Try again.

 

[ussnark]

Why bother? It matters not how you or I define "windfall" or interpret any other provision of the ALPA merger policy.

All that is legally binding is the arbitrator's interpretation of such terms and provisions, even if you or I -- or even if you AND I -- think the arbitrator got it "wrong."

Binding arbitration is funny like that. Too bad your union leaders didn't sufficiently educate you as to what you were getting into.

Indeed. It seems you and I are talking about two different things.

While a validated binding arbitration is indeed "binding" on defined parties, the east and west pilots, it is not binding on the hosting organization, ALPA National. They are free to do with the "award" as they see fit. They are the ones to whom the concept, "windfall", becomes very important, hence, my question to you, windfall?

It seems the westies might be in for a little, uh, education. Oh, and, step it up, will you?

 

[Junebug172]

Just curious: What are you guys/gals gonna do if/when the decertification actually happens?

I'm going to lay a big fat kiss on your lips and call you "Daddy."

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Heck, I'd even be willing to send in a card. The sooner the vote takes place the sooner IMO the USAPA can die.

I really wish you would send in a card. It only means the NMB will investigate the issue and hopefully call for an election. Then all pilots on the property would be given a vote. Either maintain the status quo or elect a new bargaining agent.

With all of ALPA's blunders they will be hard pressed to defend them. National and the MEC's. Past and present. The campaign drivel(sp) would be awesome to watch.

I welcome the opportunity to voice my opinion through a simple vote.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Well, the list is the list, that is finally established. Prater's Rice committee is like mammary glands on a boar hog. The list needs to be sent in, then we can all proceed with whatever it is we want to proceed with. This boxing type stare down is getting old.

The list being sent in is the figurative bell to "get it on" so to speak. Nothing is gonna happen until then, other than staring at each other trying to look mean and tough.

 

[Junebug172]

I really wish you would send in a card. It only means the NMB will investigate the issue and hopefully call for an election. Then all pilots on the property would be given a vote. Either maintain the status quo or elect a new bargaining agent.

With all of ALPA's blunders they will be hard pressed to defend them. National and the MEC's. Past and present. The campaign drivel(sp) would be awesome to watch.

I welcome the opportunity to voice my opinion through a simple vote.

Personally, I think you're blinded by your hat of ALPA. USAPA cannot and will not be able to defend its pilot group and provide the service that ALPA can. If you look beyond this political crap that's going on and instead focus on the Aeromedical, legal, and other services it provides, you'll find that there is no other comparison out there. Even the almighty APA uses some of ALPA's services.

And speaking of APA, do you subscribe to their PDP newsletter? You think and inhouse is going to avoid this BS? It won't.

And what happens when Parker goes trolling again? I've personally seen how much money it takes to run an integration. Add to that the cost of day-to-day ops and grievances, and you've got yourself a perpetual assessment. The east and West have spent way more than they take in and only through ALPA's assistance did we get the funds to get through this.

USAPA will never have enough money and will be unable to provide for its pilots.

Plus, every West pilot will file a DFR lawsuit of USAPA. The company will have a good time with us.

I've also noticed that USA320Pilot is now saying that USAPA won't file now until they have a "comfortable" number of cards. It wasn't too long ago he was just about there. Seems the time line has been pushed back.

Not a good sign.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I'm going to lay a big fat kiss on your lips and call you "Daddy."

That would be awesome. I hope it comes to fruition. Only time and more ALPA blunders will tell.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Personally, I think you're blinded by your hat of ALPA. USAPA cannot and will not be able to defend its pilot group and provide the service that ALPA can. If you look beyond this political crap that's going on and instead focus on the Aeromedical, legal, and other services it provides, you'll find that there is no other comparison out there. Even the almighty APA uses some of ALPA's services.


USAPA will never have enough money and will be unable to provide for its pilots.

Plus, every West pilot will file a DFR lawsuit of USAPA. The company will have a good time with us.

I've also noticed that USA320Pilot is now saying that USAPA won't file now until they have a "comfortable" number of cards. It wasn't too long ago he was just about there. Seems the time line has been pushed back.

Not a good sign.

First off, isn't aeromedical a contract service out of Denver? Hence the APA participation for a fee? Legal? Know any good attorneys that would be willing to work for only one master. The ALPA attorneys in the past have advised us with dubious recommendations at best. The "other" services are easily replaced.

Money? Interesting comment. There will be enough for supporting the pilots. Not all the high priced secretaries in Herndon. Who some by the way make more than you or I do. Plus a retirement.

Every pilot? Maybe through class action, hope they have the grounds to file on. But that is conjecture. By default you're assuming they won't be given a chance to participate. Which they will. Not a lawyer but I always thought frivolous lawsuits come with penalties. Still waiting to hear how bad our MEC is going to get hammered over that one. Hence time for a change.

Can't speak for USA320. I am willing to wait as long as it takes. Like I said somewhere before, USAPA has only been public for a very short amount of time. I on the other hand have waited since '89 to have this chance. Current events and point in time have converged to allow this chance.

Signs? Only time and more blunders by the MEC and ALPA National can only help.

 

[EastUS]

Personally, I think you're blinded by your hat of ALPA. USAPA cannot and will not be able to defend its pilot group and provide the service that ALPA can. If you look beyond this political crap that's going on and instead focus on the Aeromedical, legal, and other services it provides, you'll find that there is no other comparison out there. Even the almighty APA uses some of ALPA's services.

And speaking of APA, do you subscribe to their PDP newsletter? You think and inhouse is going to avoid this BS? It won't.

And what happens when Parker goes trolling again? I've personally seen how much money it takes to run an integration. Add to that the cost of day-to-day ops and grievances, and you've got yourself a perpetual assessment. The east and West have spent way more than they take in and only through ALPA's assistance did we get the funds to get through this.

USAPA will never have enough money and will be unable to provide for its pilots.

Plus, every West pilot will file a DFR lawsuit of USAPA. The company will have a good time with us.

I've also noticed that USA320Pilot is now saying that USAPA won't file now until they have a "comfortable" number of cards. It wasn't too long ago he was just about there. Seems the time line has been pushed back.

Not a good sign.

That's a pretty huge hefty bag full of pure assumptions IMHO..except for the hack on USA320, who changes stances faster than underwear I'd guess, and; you're employing him as any measuring device here?. Trust me..if only on this one point = HE IS NOT, in any way "the voice of the east", nor do I foolishly claim to be. What I post is honest opinion, and is seasoned by interfacing with the other line guys I work with/talk with. The "320" bozos on both sides seem pregnant with political aspirations. No great offence meant, but: You've "confessed" to doing Alpo time, at the sacred AWA MEC level...this makes your observations a wee bit suspect in my book as well You've attempted to justify clowns that don't fly..and have made the "union" their priority....as versus the actual pilots theyre supposedly serving. You further noted some seeming disgust with line pilots that bitched about the Alpo punks not flying...but were seemingly coming to said punks, hat in hand, whenever trouble surfaced...That's about as arrogant, and disparaging of line pilots, and unimaginably self ascribed Grandness for Alpoids as can be seen. You've frankly crossed the borderline for my digestive tract Did it EVER even occur to you that those poor "line swine" simply had no other, established place to go with their issues? Trust me; If their was even a wandering, drunken vagrant available...they'd likely have gone there first. ..Better that than to have to deal with some "Prince/Princess" of Alpoid persuasion

WTF do you think any "union's" JOB actually is? I'll define it for you, since you've apparent, and abundant confusion in this regard = It AIN'T about helping themselves/Alpo..it's supposedly about serving ther membership. I'm very much certain that people would go anywhere to redress greivances when needed...it's simply been a complete tragedy that all they've had for so long is Alpo...and the sort of "I'm SPECIAL"/numbnutted , or utterly nutless politicans that go with Alpo

"USAPA cannot and will not be able to defend its pilot group and provide the service that ALPA can."

And...ummm..that "service", over the past two full decades, has been WHAT?..excepting little "services" like giving away our pensions without any possible vote, and establishing the lowest pay scales, work rules/etc know to main line commercial aviation? As for "will not be able to defend its pilot group"??? The worst enemy I've seen over time IS Alpo. With "friends" like this laughable "union" offers: WHo needs enemies? Add the following consideration = Some future "merger" seems probable. Such would likely be with a larger entity. Seeing just how well Alpo takes care of it's own, and is proving so magnificently beneficial to our two groups here.....Is there ANYONE out there who can honestly advance any viable case for keeping these clowns?

No need for any immediate answer...best study it, form a few committees, book some first class hotels, and eventually offer a thought or two as to how to placate the "line swine"...as I've actually heard Holier-than-thou Alpoids refer to "us" lowly ones.

PS: Don't forget to claim maximum possible block hours whilst mutually jerking around, and, if you feel the sad need to actually ever FLY, dont' forget to adjust the trip to your personal needs via calling off with "Alpo business", and sticking it to some reserve.

USAF squadrons function perfectly well without designated "desk jockeys" who do not do any of their share of the flying. Duties are performed on a rotational basis...and yet?..things work fine. You're arguing to maintain an utterly corrupt, and morally reprehensible system of self interested/BS "Politicians" that've carved out little niches in the Alpo cave, wherein they can at least semi-"retire" from the rigours of flight. The most "flaming" example of which is Prater = half a MILLION per year....for doing...ummm WHAT exactly? He's achieved the ultimate Alpo "Gold Medal"...he's "retired"....getting rich, not even a pilot, and thusly, livin' the TRUE Alpo "dream" The most pathetic, and utterly hilarious part is that he still calls himself a "Captain"...and dresses up in airline "costume" .

Please, pretty please..do amuse us all by any attempt to "justify" the above noted behavior from Alpoids. Just the part about any attempt to justify a half MILLION dollar per year jackass like Prater would be good for a month's worth of laughs.

 

[700UW]

I really wish you would send in a card. It only means the NMB will investigate the issue and hopefully call for an election. Then all pilots on the property would be given a vote. Either maintain the status quo or elect a new bargaining agent.

With all of ALPA's blunders they will be hard pressed to defend them. National and the MEC's. Past and present. The campaign drivel(sp) would be awesome to watch.

I welcome the opportunity to voice my opinion through a simple vote.

You forgot one choice no 50%+1 obtained, no longer union and become employees at will, no cba.

 

[EastUS]

You forgot one choice no 50%+1 obtained, no longer union and become employees at will, no cba.

I've generally refused to waste typing time on your postings but: Ummm..you're postings would be better served if you regain some positional notion of actual reality....I ain't gonna' hold my breath. There's NO CHANCE that the current "dump Alpo" issue equals becoming "employees at will". You really must have far too much time on your hands,(typical of a union drone or just a seriously warped need for attention.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You forgot one choice no 50%+1 obtained, no longer union and become employees at will, no cba.

Forgot about that one, but lets see......

I am not the expert on details and procedures. But I believe it's 50%+1 of the votes cast to elect a new bargaining rep. At least I will get to vote. Last I saw there were approximately (From Blomberg News) 4403 pilots on the property. 2618 on the east and 1785 on the west. Don't know how many are on the furloughed list, that is very dynamic. It looks to me like it will be easier to get USAPA elected than get an election. I for one am willing to try. Voting? what a novel concept around this place.

But Whoa No CBA? hhmmm wonder what would happen to all the ALPA boondoggle mess we find ourselves in?

Actually I like the "at will" part. How about an SOS till we have 4403 individual contracts, just like management. "Hey Doug, you want me to fly that POS? Will cost you a special retirement fund just like Wolf and Gangwal. BTW why don't you throw in a couple of million options at your $5.00 per share conversion rate. Thanks!

All kidding aside, would welcome the opportunity to once and for all remove ALPA from the property.

 

[EastUS]

All kidding aside, would welcome the opportunity to once and for all remove ALPA from the property.

AMEN

 

[Junebug172]

USAF squadrons function perfectly well without designated "desk jockeys" who do not do any of their share of the flying. Duties are performed on a rotational basis...and yet?..things work fine.

Can't wait to see what happens when USA320Pilot does a rotation in the office.

You and I both know you'll have the same stooges that keep feeding you BS now running USUKA.

As was posted earlier, the more things change, the more the stay the same.