2015 Fleet Service Discussion

[MetalMover]

For the one millionth time if it's what you ALL really want then you will get those cards signed and submitted. What are you waiting for?

I'm only one person. I did my part. Maybe some of my pro TWU union brethren need some more screwing to wake up. Let's wait to see what the company offers us in JCBA. I think most will be disappointed.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm only one person. I did my part. Maybe some of my pro TWU union brethren need some more screwing to wake up. Let's wait to see what the company offers us in JCBA. I think most will be disappointed.

Did your part? So is the drive over then?

And I'll bet you a coffee that most won't be disappointed?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

That's a tall order brother...over on the TWU side, some are convinced that because of fleet, other work groups have suffered. Coat tail rider I believe is one label used. Uphill battle indeed!

Stop being so truthful. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Must be nice for the TWU and IAM to play hot potato and keep passing the blame.  I'm real glad the so-called association has the working mans back or is it their own?  Meanwhile the dues keep rolling in.

That should tell any sane person to dump them both and bring in AMFA.
 
"Details of the contract modifications will be released later today."
 
Let me translate that for you.
 
"We have already cut a deal with the IAM while keeping the membership in the dark.  We will let you know how we decided your future later."

I wasn't aware the AMFA was interested in representing Fleet Service.

I don't have anything against the AMFA and if I were a mech I might even support them.  It's not an option for Fleet Service, so I don't know why anyone would put it forward in this, the Fleet Service thread.
 
The sense I get is that those who do support the AMFA and loathe the TWU are dead set on the TWU nonetheless being the sole bargaining agent for Fleet and MX as far as the current situation is concerned.  Is that correct?

They probably are not. That does not mean my comment has any less validity. The thread may be titled 2015 Fleet Service Discussion but there are still a lot of mechanics posting on here.
 

So why does that bother you? Let us sink or swim. Maybe if the mechanics left the TWU, fleet service might be able to negotiate a way better contract because of it. Are the pilots lumped in with any other work groups? Are they isolated? Wy not ask them if they want to join the TWU?

I am hoping for a domino effect (also mentioned by MetalMover). Maybe if the mechs dump the sorry TWU the other groups will follow and the workforce will finally see them "off property". 
 
Don't believe for a second that TWU has done any favors for Fleet and don't believe for a second you don't have options besides the "association". 
 
In my opinion ChockJockey the TWU has not just failed the mechanics, they have failed all they represent. They need to go. 

 

[NYer]

One that actually listened to the membership & acted accordingly.

IOW, the exact opposite of the UAL NC...

 
How is a consensus of thousands taken? How do they act according to so many different opinions and needs?

 

[MetalMover]

Did your part? So is the drive over then?

And I'll bet you a coffee that most won't be disappointed?

I did my part by signing a card when presented. I did my part convincing others or at least tried to convince others to sign a card and vote for AMFA if and when the time came. When the time finally came, the TWU added dead and retired mechanics to the list.

 

[NYer]

Imo... Solidarity among the represented work groups would be a benefit to all. The represented work groups below wing should stick together and be concerned for all of those in this category. Historically, all represented groups below wing, regardless of representation, craft or class, have suffered the consequences of bankruptcy law, concessions, and job loss through outsourcing. A common thread among work groups below wing. This should serve as a good baseline to build solidarity. What happened to the battle cry "Strength in Numbers!" ? Is it the truth? Is it something that cannot be achieved? The floor is respectfully open for discussion. 
 
 
 

 
As a relatively small union the TWU tried to do exactly what you say. They wanted to partner with the IAM and the CWA in order to pool resources and hopefully put a dent in the dismantling of the airline career.
 
The airlines do it, they fight each other as businesses and undercut each other rival routes but at the same time they also participate in "Airlines for America" which is a lobby group that works to gain favor for their long term advantages. In the meantime, the airline workers fight each other and blame each other. We fight each more than the airlines do and we help them dismantle the entire industry. If we don't finally learn to work with each other the downward spiral that started in 1978 will continue.
 
"The hugely profitable airlines that benefit from the ragtag army of poorly paid workers at New York’s airports have received about $2.7 billion in taxpayer-subsidized loans over the past decade, records show."
 
"The Port Authority — which runs the New York airports and leases terminals to the airlines — and the city have handed Delta, American and JetBlue millions of dollars in tax-exempt bonds to expand and renovate their terminals."
 
"The bonds save the airlines millions of dollars, but in return, the airlines promise to create hundreds of full-time jobs."
 
"Many of those jobs wind up being low-wage, dead-end positions — some of them part-time — that provide barely enough income to survive."
 
"The Daily News contacted each of the three airlines and was referred to Airlines for America, a trade group representing all the major airlines."
 

They work together. We push each other away.​

 
But wait, there's more....
 
"The movement to raise the pay of low-income workers gained momentum this week as two Boston-area organizations announced new initiatives to increase wages."
 
"Ticket agents, baggage handlers, and cabin cleaners at Logan Airport will be paid at least $10 an hour as of Jan. 1 and $11 the following year, if the Massachusetts Port Authority board acts as expected Thursday. The board is set to adopt a resolution to implement new state minimum wage rates a year earlier than required, marking the first time Massport has ordered airport contractors to go beyond state requirements."
 
"But Airlines for America, the industry trade group, does not approve of Massport’s method."
 
“There are appropriate ways to address minimum wage for all workers,” spokeswoman Jean Medina said in a statement, “and that is through the state Legislature or at the federal level, which would affect all workers, and not single out those who work at an airport.”

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

They ultimately don't want any institutional unions representing them. TWU, IAM, IBT, CWA doesn't matter. They want a segregated class and craft union that only focuses on their issues alone mostly. They don't like being lumped into other workers concerns. IMO they want to isolate themselves.

I would have to agree.
 
There is nothing wrong with expecting an entity you PAY to represent YOU to negotiate in YOUR best interest.
 
If they feel like TWU can't meet those needs then they SHOULD seek a representative that can.

 

[BLUTO]

What tone can a person have using a computer keyboard?

And since you "Totally Agree" that shows you're not concerned about other workers aside from yourselves. Why are you posting on a Fleet thread then?

SAME REZUN
NIELSUN N DOOSH
DO> BASH IAM!
 
MARK

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

As a relatively small union the TWU tried to do exactly what you say. They wanted to partner with the IAM and the CWA in order to pool resources and hopefully put a dent in the dismantling of the airline career.
 
The airlines do it, they fight each other as businesses and undercut each other rival routes but at the same time they also participate in "Airlines for America" which is a lobby group that works to gain favor for their long term advantages. In the meantime, the airline workers fight each other and blame each other. We fight each more than the airlines do and we help them dismantle the entire industry. If we don't finally learn to work with each other the downward spiral that started in 1978 will continue.

I seem to recall in 2003 the TWU was all too eager to GIVE concession to American Airlines. They started a fear propaganda that current employees would lose their retirement if the concession were not met.  
 
A UNION should never GIVE back what was won in a negotiation and is contractually viable.  What TWU's response to American Airlines SHOULD have been is "take it if you can, we will see you in court". Maybe the TWU would have lost but as it stands.......... the membership lost........twice.
 
You can argue the TWU was looking out for the future employment prospects of the employees but that did not stop American Airlines from taking more during bankruptcy did it? It was a 2 for 1 courtesy of TWU fear propaganda.
 
Note, American Airlines had 4 BILLION dollars in the bank when they filed, or at least that was the rumor.
 
I recall upper management getting HUGE bonuses after those "concessions" then jumping ship.
 
"Concessions", what a joke, TWU might as well have gift wrapped them. They should have called them "gifts". 
 
Then not long after American Airlines announced they made the largest aircraft order in history. That is some announcement coming from a company in such dire straights they had to file (a sham) bankruptcy 
 
 
You tell me what kind of UNION would start a fear campaign AGAINST their own members to vote FOR concessions.
 
and that my friends is why TWU needs to go.

 

[WeAAsles]

SAME REZUN
NIELSUN N DOOSH
DO> BASH IAM!
 
MARK

Back and forth my friend. Nothing but back and forth nonsense. Roll it up, roll it out and repeat. 

Lemuel Gulliver. 

 

[700UW]

 

[NYer]

I seem to recall in 2003 the TWU was all too eager to GIVE concession to American Airlines. They started a fear propaganda that current employees would lose their retirement if the concession were not met.  --Fear propaganda? Eager? I guess you're still in the "they'll never file" camp.
 
A UNION should never GIVE back what was won in a negotiation and is contractually viable.  What TWU's response to American Airlines SHOULD have been is "take it if you can, we will see you in court". Maybe the TWU would have lost but as it stands.......... the membership lost........twice. --Not maybe? the TWU would have lost. Didn't you didn't realize how the process works during the 2011 BK. It's truly baffling how you complain about the place we're in now, but you openly welcome a "take it or leave it" tactic during a BK. A place where "take it or leave it" really means "take it." 
 
You can argue the TWU was looking out for the future employment prospects of the employees but that did not stop American Airlines from taking more during bankruptcy did it? It was a 2 for 1 courtesy of TWU fear propaganda. --Right. We kept accruing our pensions for another decade, we kept our medical costs lower than other airlines, it allowed thousands of retiree to keep their ability to retire early and keep their coverage during the 55 to 64 period. It allowed thousands in the Bases to keep their positions on not be given the same treatment as other Base workers in other bankrupt airlines. Yeah. We should have let them go into BK in '03. We'd be better off today. =/
 
Note, American Airlines had 4 BILLION dollars in the bank when they filed, or at least that was the rumor. --Not sure if you know how bankruptcies are filed, but it depends on how much you owe rather than how much you have.
 
I recall upper management getting HUGE bonuses after those "concessions" then jumping ship. --I recall management getting HUGE bonuses after the Delta BK, the United BK, the Northwest BK (even after the "noble" fight by AMFA). In this country, management gets their bonuses 100% of the time. We all wanted Horton gone...He's gone, with $20M. How does any of that change anything else? It doesn't. It's just a point to be angry over and everyone is angry.
 
"Concessions", what a joke, TWU might as well have gift wrapped them. They should have called them "gifts". --Just like the rest of the industry since 1978.
 
Then not long after American Airlines announced they made the largest aircraft order in history. That is some announcement coming from a company in such dire straights they had to file (a sham) bankruptcy --Copy. The '03 was a "threat" and the '11 BK was a "sham." Whether you believe it or not, we had to deal with it.
 
 
You tell me what kind of UNION would start a fear campaign AGAINST their own members to vote FOR concessions. --Every single union in the airline industry since 1978.
 
and that my friends is why TWU needs to go. --So I assume, you have an alternative that has not gone through a "sham" of a BK, and who didn't succumb to "fear campaigns."

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 Fear propaganda? Eager? I guess you're still in the "they'll never file" camp. 

They were going to file no matter what. Giving concession just allowed them to hit us twice.
 

Not maybe? the TWU would have lost. Didn't you didn't realize how the process works during the 2011 BK. It's truly baffling how you complain about the place we're in now, but you openly welcome a "take it or leave it" tactic during a BK. A place where "take it or leave it" really means "take it."

Except American Airlines took it...... twice. You are entitled to your opinion of course but I believe the employees of American Airlines would have lost less had they told American to file. I believe it was inevitable American Airlines was going to file all along.
 

Right. We kept accruing our pensions for another decade, we kept our medical costs lower than other airlines, it allowed thousands of retiree to keep their ability to retire early and keep their coverage during the 55 to 64 period. It allowed thousands in the Bases to keep their positions on not be given the same treatment as other Base workers in other bankrupt airlines. Yeah. We should have let them go into BK in '03. We'd be better off today. =/

I believe you would be better off yes. No doubt it helped a few in the last few years of their career but the current employees paid the price by signing a LONG term contract. American Airlines is not stupid. They did a cost analysis before they made a move and this was the path that put the most money in their pocket. 
 

Not sure if you know how bankruptcies are filed, but it depends on how much you owe rather than how much you have.

That argument might hold water if American Airlines did not announce "the largest commercial aircraft order in history" right after the bankruptcy. 
 
So your argument is they took bankruptcy..... to get out of debt....... to put themselves billions of dollars right back into debt........ 
 

I recall management getting HUGE bonuses after the Delta BK, the United BK, the Northwest BK (even after the "noble" fight by AMFA). In this country, management gets their bonuses 100% of the time. We all wanted Horton gone...He's gone, with $20M. How does any of that change anything else? It doesn't. It's just a point to be angry over and everyone is angry.

That's right, everyone is angry. Anger can be a great tool for change.  It can't change the past but it can change the future.
 

Just like the rest of the industry since 1978.

The old TWU standby, blame everything on deregulation.
 

Copy. The '03 was a "threat" and the '11 BK was a "sham." Whether you believe it or not, we had to deal with it.

We did not have to "deal" with it by letting American Airlines double dip.
 

Every single union in the airline industry since 1978.

That sounds like an admission of defeat to me. If the UNIONs have been powerless since 1978 why have one? I mean why bother paying dues if the company can just do what they want anyway?
 
Are you admitting that TWU has outlived its usefulness? I mean besides collecting dues and funding liberal political campaigns. 
 

So I assume, you have an alternative that has not gone through a "sham" of a BK, and who didn't succumb to "fear campaigns."

What you should be asking yourself is why people put up with it today.

 

[NYer]

They were going to file no matter what. Giving concession just allowed them to hit us twice. --Those cuts in '03 allowed us to keep more jobs, accrue our pension for another decade, allowed more to retire with medical and kept our medical lower than most others that DID file BK between 2003 and 2011.
 
Except American Airlines took it...... twice. You are entitled to your opinion of course but I believe the employees of American Airlines would have lost less had they told American to file. I believe it was inevitable American Airlines was going to file all along. --So the error made by the TWU, in your opinion was that they did not allow the airline to file for BK in '03 and if they did we would have lost less. Is that your belief?
 
I believe you would be better off yes. No doubt it helped a few in the last few years of their career but the current employees paid the price by signing a LONG term contract. American Airlines is not stupid. They did a cost analysis before they made a move and this was the path that put the most money in their pocket. --5 years is a long term contract? Would you rather we signed a 3 year contract which would have brought us to 2006 and right in the middle of the Delta, United, Northwest BK's. That seems like a good time to negotiate a deal?
 
That argument might hold water if American Airlines did not announce "the largest commercial aircraft order in history" right after the bankruptcy. --They actually announced that deal before they went into bankruptcy. Even with that order their debt load allowed them to file for bankruptcy, even when some of the leadership said it was impossible for them to do so.
 
So your argument is they took bankruptcy..... to get out of debt....... to put themselves billions of dollars right back into debt....--Some system, huh.
 
That's right, everyone is angry. Anger can be a great tool for change.  It can't change the past but it can change the future. --Anger is also blinding.
 
The old TWU standby, blame everything on deregulation. --Oh. Sorry. Deregulation has nothing to do with it. (smh)
 
We did not have to "deal" with it by letting American Airlines double dip. --This will be interesting. How did they "double dip"? I'd be very interested to hear how you believe we didn't have to deal with the '03 and '11 issues.
 
That sounds like an admission of defeat to me. If the UNIONs have been powerless since 1978 why have one? I mean why bother paying dues if the company can just do what they want anyway?
 
Are you admitting that TWU has outlived its usefulness? I mean besides collecting dues and funding liberal political campaigns. --Ah. A Conservative, are you.
 
What you should be asking yourself is why people put up with it today. --So, no. You can't answer the question of whether you have an alternative that has not gone through a "sham" of a BK, and who didn't succumb to "fear campaigns."