2015 Fleet Service Discussion

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Those cuts in '03 allowed us to keep more jobs, accrue our pension for another decade, allowed more to retire with medical and kept our medical lower than most others that DID file BK between 2003 and 2011.

 
I don't believe in giving up pay and benefits to retain jobs. That strategy has never worked in the favor of labor. The company either needs the manpower or they don't.  You claim all these benefits by taking concessions...... the fact is you don't know how it would have turned out had the membership refused. You are making a claim of absolution you have no way to validate.
 
 
So the error made by the TWU, in your opinion was that they did not allow the airline to file for BK in '03 and if they did we would have lost less. Is that your belief?
 
Allow? American Airlines does not require the TWU's permission to file for bankruptcy. It is my belief that the current workforce would be better off today taking the bankruptcy in 03 yes.
 
 
5 years is a long term contract? Would you rather we signed a 3 year contract which would have brought us to 2006 and right in the middle of the Delta, United, Northwest BK's. That seems like a good time to negotiate a deal?
 
You are implying that the TWU had the foresight to know about Delta, United, and Northwest BK's and arranged a longer term contract to benefit the membership. I really rather doubt that.  
 
What I am implying is that with American Airlines history of using stall tactics when it comes time to settle a contract 5 years was far too long with no kind of kickback. They may called it a 5 year contract but the fact is it ran much longer.
 
 
They actually announced that deal before they went into bankruptcy. Even with that order their debt load allowed them to file for bankruptcy, even when some of the leadership said it was impossible for them to do so.
 
That is not how I recall it. I would ask you to prove your claim. I know if I owned a company I would not give credit for billions of dollars worth of product to a company with a looming bankruptcy. 
 
 
Some system, huh.
 
On that we can agree.
 
 
Anger is also blinding.
 
Anger is a tool like anything else.
 
 
Oh. Sorry. Deregulation has nothing to do with it. (smh)
 
I don't think so no. The fact is tickets are cheaper but you have a lot more people flying. I think over time it balances out. You can sight all the bankrupt airlines if you like but a lot of those were bankrupted by corporate raiders...... not pricing. TWA is a good example of that. By the way I had to Google (smh). That stands for Shaking My Head right?  I learned something today so thanks for that.
 
 
This will be interesting. How did they "double dip"? I'd be very interested to hear how you believe we didn't have to deal with the '03 and '11 issues.
 
I would think how they double dipped would be pretty obvious.
 
 
Ah. A Conservative, are you.
 
I don't believe in absolutes but I would say I favor Conservatism yes.
 
 
So, no. You can't answer the question of whether you have an alternative that has not gone through a "sham" of a BK, and who didn't succumb to "fear campaigns."
 
I can tell you I make more money per hour in less than 1 year what took 10 to make at American Airlines and I did not need a UNION to negotiate it for me. I can tell you I have superior benefits to what American Airlines offered me.
 
I am of the opinion that a mulitservice (meaning they cover different kinds of work groups at different companies) UNION because of its broad scope is very susceptible to corruption.
 
In my opinion a better alternative would be to have a UNION of American Airlines only employees. That way they have "skin in the game" as it were instead of not feeling the effects because their paycheck comes from multiple sources. 
 
To me AMFA is not really the best answer. To me it would be better to have all American Airlines workers under one umbrella. If that can't be than something like AMFA is a good second best.
 
I am not anti UNION but, I don't believe the way the TWU is set up benefits anyone except the TWU. 
 
 
 
 
Thank you for being civil.

 

[NYer]

 

Those cuts in '03 allowed us to keep more jobs, accrue our pension for another decade, allowed more to retire with medical and kept our medical lower than most others that DID file BK between 2003 and 2011.

 
I don't believe in giving up pay and benefits to retain jobs. That strategy has never worked in the favor of labor. The company either needs the manpower or they don't.  You claim all these benefits by taking concessions...... the fact is you don't know how it would have turned out had the membership refused. You are making a claim of absolution you have no way to validate.
 
 
So the error made by the TWU, in your opinion was that they did not allow the airline to file for BK in '03 and if they did we would have lost less. Is that your belief?
 
Allow? American Airlines does not require the TWU's permission to file for bankruptcy. It is my belief that the current workforce would be better off today taking the bankruptcy in 03 yes.
 
 
5 years is a long term contract? Would you rather we signed a 3 year contract which would have brought us to 2006 and right in the middle of the Delta, United, Northwest BK's. That seems like a good time to negotiate a deal?
 
You are implying that the TWU had the foresight to know about Delta, United, and Northwest BK's and arranged a longer term contract to benefit the membership. I really rather doubt that.  
 
What I am implying is that with American Airlines history of using stall tactics when it comes time to settle a contract 5 years was far too long with no kind of kickback. They may called it a 5 year contract but the fact is it ran much longer.
 
 
They actually announced that deal before they went into bankruptcy. Even with that order their debt load allowed them to file for bankruptcy, even when some of the leadership said it was impossible for them to do so.
 
That is not how I recall it. I would ask you to prove your claim. I know if I owned a company I would not give credit for billions of dollars worth of product to a company with a looming bankruptcy. 
 
 
Some system, huh.
 
On that we can agree.
 
 
Anger is also blinding.
 
Anger is a tool like anything else.
 
 
Oh. Sorry. Deregulation has nothing to do with it. (smh)
 
I don't think so no. The fact is tickets are cheaper but you have a lot more people flying. I think over time it balances out. You can sight all the bankrupt airlines if you like but a lot of those were bankrupted by corporate raiders...... not pricing. TWA is a good example of that. By the way I had to Google (smh). That stands for Shaking My Head right?  I learned something today so thanks for that.
 
 
This will be interesting. How did they "double dip"? I'd be very interested to hear how you believe we didn't have to deal with the '03 and '11 issues.
 
I would think how they double dipped would be pretty obvious.
 
 
Ah. A Conservative, are you.
 
I don't believe in absolutes but I would say I favor Conservatism yes.
 
 
So, no. You can't answer the question of whether you have an alternative that has not gone through a "sham" of a BK, and who didn't succumb to "fear campaigns."
 
I can tell you I make more money per hour in less than 1 year what took 10 to make at American Airlines and I did not need a UNION to negotiate it for me. I can tell you I have superior benefits to what American Airlines offered me.
 
I am of the opinion that a mulitservice (meaning they cover different kinds of work groups at different companies) UNION because of its broad scope is very susceptible to corruption.
 
In my opinion a better alternative would be to have a UNION of American Airlines only employees. That way they have "skin in the game" as it were instead of not feeling the effects because their paycheck comes from multiple sources. 
 
To me AMFA is not really the best answer. To me it would be better to have all American Airlines workers under one umbrella. If that can't be than something like AMFA is a good second best.
 
I am not anti UNION but, I don't believe the way the TWU is set up benefits anyone except the TWU. 
 
 
 
 
Thank you for being civil.

 

 
I don't know how it would have turned out if the membership refused? Refused when? In Section 6 negotiations. It seems it would have dragged on forever. The NMB was not inclined to allow any self-help and they even kept the two sides apart without negotiations for almost a year. That is called a stalemate and you won't get "restore and more" in that type of scenario.
 
During the BK? Yes, we know what you have happened. The same thing, if not worse, than what happened to the APA who did say no. They had their contract abrogated by the BK Court. Luckily, they were able to come back with the same 17% cuts everyone else got.
-------------
 
Anger is a tool if you know how to use it and when not to use. When it's time to make a decision, there is nothing more damaging than anger.
-------------
 
Yes. It stands for "shaking my head," then you have "shaking my head slowly," or SMHS.
-------------
 
If it was obvious, I wouldn't ask what you believe "double dipping" is.
-------------
 
Trying to have a union that represents everyone in AA might sound like a good idea, but those that we fight in negotiations are not working that way. What the unions and the union members need to do it realize what the big picture is and work towards that. We might fight AA with one union, but AA is partnered with other airlines and they can put those resources together to scale out a long term plan against labor, they have a larger voice in lobbying efforts. That organization is called Airlines for America and they work collectively, silently, but collectively.
 
Unions are supposed to work because of their large numbers and by working together. In this context, smaller is not better. Smaller equates to non-existent, voiceless. When corporations can give millions to political parties, it takes the strength of a unified vote to counter act that. Labor doesn't have that presently. Therefore, as an institution we have become weaker and weaker...The peak was the 1950's and many things have happened since then, unfortunately, many union members haven't reached the present as they are still stuck in 50's tactics.

 

[MetalMover]

 
I don't know how it would have turned out if the membership refused? Refused when? In Section 6 negotiations. It seems it would have dragged on forever. The NMB was not inclined to allow any self-help and they even kept the two sides apart without negotiations for almost a year. That is called a stalemate and you won't get "restore and more" in that type of scenario.
 
During the BK? Yes, we know what you have happened. The same thing, if not worse, than what happened to the APA who did say no. They had their contract abrogated by the BK Court. Luckily, they were able to come back with the same 17% cuts everyone else got.
-------------
 
Anger is a tool if you know how to use it and when not to use. When it's time to make a decision, there is nothing more damaging than anger.
-------------
 
Yes. It stands for "shaking my head," then you have "shaking my head slowly," or SMHS.
-------------
 
If it was obvious, I wouldn't ask what you believe "double dipping" is.
-------------
 
Trying to have a union that represents everyone in AA might sound like a good idea, but those that we fight in negotiations are not working that way. What the unions and the union members need to do it realize what the big picture is and work towards that. We might fight AA with one union, but AA is partnered with other airlines and they can put those resources together to scale out a long term plan against labor, they have a larger voice in lobbying efforts. That organization is called Airlines for America and they work collectively, silently, but collectively.
 
Unions are supposed to work because of their large numbers and by working together. In this context, smaller is not better. Smaller equates to non-existent, voiceless. When corporations can give millions to political parties, it takes the strength of a unified vote to counter act that. Labor doesn't have that presently. Therefore, as an institution we have become weaker and weaker...The peak was the 1950's and many things have happened since then, unfortunately, many union members haven't reached the present as they are still stuck in 50's tactics.

What a thoughtful post about unions....How about preaching to the TWU that they should start by stopping the division between all those they represent? That they should fight outsourcing at all costs but not agree to shifting work from one work to another at the expense of one group? How about they stop pitting one employee against another by where they are based? how about that? How about they start acting like a union and stop agreeing to everything and grow some nads and say "enough is enough, we have give enough back?"

 

[NYer]

What a thoughtful post about unions....How about preaching to the TWU that they should start by stopping the division between all those they represent? --What division? You mean they shouldn't have separated the mechanics from the FSC Locals, like the mechanics wanted. Maybe you mean they shouldn't have consolidated the line Locals to pool your votes and resources. It seems strange to me that those who complain about division so much are usually the same ones that want to bring in another union.
 
That they should fight outsourcing at all costs but not agree to shifting work from one work to another at the expense of one group? --AA has the least amount of outsourcing of any other legacy airline, and more AMT's per aircraft than anyone else. (you don't like that fact, but you keep bringing up the question.) Exactly what does "at all costs" mean to you, like this past CBA in BK what would have been your solution to preventing the outsourcing in a BK environment?
 
How about they stop pitting one employee against another by where they are based? how about that? --You mean like by proposing some take less so other get more under the pseudonym of GEO pay?
 
How about they start acting like a union and stop agreeing to everything and grow some nads and say "enough is enough, we have give enough back?" --Didn't we do that from 2008 to November 29th, 2011.

 

[MetalMover]

 

What a thoughtful post about unions....How about preaching to the TWU that they should start by stopping the division between all those they represent? --What division? You mean they shouldn't have separated the mechanics from the FSC Locals, like the mechanics wanted. Maybe you mean they shouldn't have consolidated the line Locals to pool your votes and resources. It seems strange to me that those who complain about division so much are usually the same ones that want to bring in another union.
No. pitting TUL against the line in order to pass substandard contracts.
 
That they should fight outsourcing at all costs but not agree to shifting work from one work to another at the expense of one group? --AA has the least amount of outsourcing of any other legacy airline, and more AMT's per aircraft than anyone else. (you don't like that fact, but you keep bringing up the question.) Exactly what does "at all costs" mean to you, like this past CBA in BK what would have been your solution to preventing the outsourcing in a BK environment? SO what other work currently done by mechanics would you like fleet service to do next? All costs means do not give in to company threats. If they threaten job loss, call their bluff.. Do you know why, NYer? Because the wind up cutting jobs ANYWAY as we have all seen.
 
How about they stop pitting one employee against another by where they are based? how about that? --You mean like by proposing some take less so other get more under the pseudonym of GEO pay? Wow GEO pay really bothers you....and you are in NY....But that is not what I was referring to....I was referring to the affordable area TUL compared to the higher cost of living areas.....Is that ok with you? BTW, where did I ever say that GEO pay for some would mean less for others? Please do not put words in my mouth. And since you are such a good union man who is SO concerned where the company will find the money for GEO pay, I say we have given enough back. Thanks to the TWU, a neutral cost contract is now the norm.
 
How about they start acting like a union and stop agreeing to everything and grow some nads and say "enough is enough, we have give enough back?" --Didn't we do that from 2008 to November 29th, 2011. You mean we during the industry leading contract years?

 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 
How about they stop pitting one employee against another by where they are based? how about that? --You mean like by proposing some take less so other get more under the pseudonym of GEO pay?

I have to take issue with this. 
 
In my opinion pay is nothing more than a representation of a standard of living. I (living in Oklahoma, a low cost area) do not expect someone from say,,,,,,, New York (a high cost of living area) to suffer a lesser standard of living because I have some expectation that we should make the same. 
 
Are you saying in your mind it is OK for two people to do the same work, for the same company, under the same UNION, but have vastly different living standards?

 

[WeAAsles]

Prevalence of Geographic Pay Differentials: According to compensation consultants Culpepper and Associates, among companies with work locations in more than one geographic area, geographic pay differentials are used by:

• 76% of companies with 100 or more employees
• 86% of companies with 10,000 or more employees
  
  http://financecareers.about.com/od/compensationoverview/a/Geographic-Pay-Differentials.htm
  
  http://www.culpepper.com/surveys/compensation/geography/US.asp
  
  
  
   

 

[NYer]

I have to take issue with this. 
 
In my opinion pay is nothing more than a representation of a standard of living. I (living in Oklahoma, a low cost area) do not expect someone from say,,,,,,, New York (a high cost of living area) to suffer a lesser standard of living because I have some expectation that we should make the same. 
 
Are you saying in your mind it is OK for two people to do the same work, for the same company, under the same UNION, but have vastly different living standards?

 
Wow. You actually want someone to subsidize your choice of where to live.
 
Are you saying in your mind it is OK for two people to do the same work, for the same company under the same UNION, but have vastly different pay rates?
 
You guys make arguments about being the lowest paid in the industry, yet you advocate to get paid more than someone else simply because of where you choose to live? That's ridiculous and really speaks as to why the insane AMFA arguments don't go anywhere.
 
I mean we are always arguing about outsourcing, which is when the airline can find someone to do the same jobs at less pay, then you want to do the same to your own co-workers? Pay them less so I can get more? The fact that sounds reasonable to you speaks volumes as to your state of mind and your true intentions to rid yourself of the TWU.
 
You're also assuming your pay will go up. Knowing how greedy corporations are, they will just probably try to lower the pay in less expensive areas. Your assumption of lowering the pay in Winnabego to get a raise in San Fran. is a bit off.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Wow. You actually want someone to subsidize your choice of where to live.

Did you miss the part where I said I lived in Oklahoma?
 
I don't expect anybody to subsidize me for anything.
 
In my opinion a company should not pay Oklahoma prices for New York labor. From that perspective it is the employees who are subsidizing American Airlines because the they are not payed fair market value for the labor they provide. 
 
 

Are you saying in your mind it is OK for two people to do the same work, for the same company under the same UNION, but have vastly different pay rates?

Yes I am saying that. 
 
That is called fair market value.
 
Even if they make more money we would have a comparable standard of living.
 
 

You guys make arguments about being the lowest paid in the industry, yet you advocate to get paid more than someone else simply because of where you choose to live? That's ridiculous and really speaks as to why the insane AMFA arguments don't go anywhere.

I have never made that argument. When the company froze the pension I decided it was no longer worth my time to work there. I don't worry about what other companies do, I only worry about if I am satisfied with my current employer.
 
Instead of looking at the arguments about being the lowest paid in the industry you should look at how much buying power YOU have lost in the last 20 years and YOUR declining pay and benefits. You speak of raises but if you adjust it for inflation  American Airlines wages have been sliding backwards for years. Now add increased medical cost and loss of pension to that. The 401K match percentage American Airlines offered you in lieu of pension is a slap in the face. Tell me what good a 401k is when your pay is not only stagnant but sliding backwards.
 
 

I mean we are always arguing about outsourcing, which is when the airline can find someone to do the same jobs at less pay, then you want to do the same to your own co-workers? Pay them less so I can get more? The fact that sounds reasonable to you speaks volumes as to your state of mind and your true intentions to rid yourself of the TWU.

Let me ask you this....... do you think you could pay contract workers the same rate of pay in New York as Oklahoma (about 8 to 10 an hour)? I really rather doubt it. That is where your argument falls apart.
 
If you feel that way then New York should pay the same minimum wage as Oklahoma.
 
I mean why should New York businesses have to pay a higher minimum wage just because it is expensive to live there?
 
You see how silly your argument sounds? At least it does to me.

 

[700UW]

so whats to stop a company from shutting down the areas that are high cost and moving the work to lower cost areas?
 
You evidently didnt study NAFTA and other trade agreements.
 
Try to find a TV, a washer or dryer, a bicycle or sneakers made in America.
 
They sell the TV for a $1000 when they moved the production overseas and lowered their costs, they didnt lower the price of the TV.

 

[WeAAsles]

Sorry guys but I'm an advocate for GEO pay. I think the fact that the IAM was able to negotiate to keep stations open at UAL by lowering the BASE rate by just a little proves it's worth.

I've seen too many stations close in my career and I can tell you for an absolute fact that many of those members would have taken a small cut in a heartbeat if it had let them stay in the homes they knew and loved. Go around and ask some of the commuters, many who have been doing it since I hired on what they think.

I also think it's the best solution to stop the company from constantly going after small cities. A good BASE rate certainly above what the average person makes in a geographic location and a subsidy for those who live in areas where they certainly NEED the relief.

 

[john john]

I don't agree with it either had to be one of the worst articles in a CBA.

What I don't get is how they could ever bring that out for a vote, yet alone vote yes on it.

And you are involved with the IAM leadership?

 

[700UW]

I am not working for the IAM.

 

[NYer]

 

 


What a thoughtful post about unions....How about preaching to the TWU that they should start by stopping the division between all those they represent? --What division? You mean they shouldn't have separated the mechanics from the FSC Locals, like the mechanics wanted. Maybe you mean they shouldn't have consolidated the line Locals to pool your votes and resources. It seems strange to me that those who complain about division so much are usually the same ones that want to bring in another union.
No. pitting TUL against the line in order to pass substandard contracts.
 
That they should fight outsourcing at all costs but not agree to shifting work from one work to another at the expense of one group? --AA has the least amount of outsourcing of any other legacy airline, and more AMT's per aircraft than anyone else. (you don't like that fact, but you keep bringing up the question.) Exactly what does "at all costs" mean to you, like this past CBA in BK what would have been your solution to preventing the outsourcing in a BK environment? SO what other work currently done by mechanics would you like fleet service to do next? All costs means do not give in to company threats. If they threaten job loss, call their bluff.. Do you know why, NYer? Because the wind up cutting jobs ANYWAY as we have all seen.
 
How about they stop pitting one employee against another by where they are based? how about that? --You mean like by proposing some take less so other get more under the pseudonym of GEO pay? Wow GEO pay really bothers you....and you are in NY....But that is not what I was referring to....I was referring to the affordable area TUL compared to the higher cost of living areas.....Is that ok with you? BTW, where did I ever say that GEO pay for some would mean less for others? Please do not put words in my mouth. And since you are such a good union man who is SO concerned where the company will find the money for GEO pay, I say we have given enough back. Thanks to the TWU, a neutral cost contract is now the norm.
 
How about they start acting like a union and stop agreeing to everything and grow some nads and say "enough is enough, we have give enough back?" --Didn't we do that from 2008 to November 29th, 2011. You mean we during the industry leading contract years?

 

 


 
--Always talk about "pitting." How does the International "pit" the Base against the Line?
 
--In what forum would you want to call a "bluff"? In Mediation, in BK?
 
--You're assuming GEO pay would mean more for the high cost area, right. Well the other side of the token for GEO pay is to leave the rates as they are and lower the pay for those in low cost areas. It's great to consider GEO when your assessment is that rates will go up. How are you so sure they wouldn't use that to lower rates further. GEO pay is double edged sword and you can't deny the possibilities.
 
--Life is sooooo easy, just say "no." That must work. =/

 

[WeAAsles]

Controversial subject but looking at what's happening over at UAL it just might be an important conversation to have?