2015 AMT Discussion

[conehead777]

dfwgen,
The worst contract out of BK is held by NWA/AMFA. After the BK was over they imposed a deal that only kept 800 AMTs which included managment and union scabs on it. DL AMTs wanted no part of those negotiating tactics as there was no showing of interest after the merger.

disagree

Kev3188 and Buck,
I understand we had people at the table and that AMR filed with over $5B in the bank. If you are implying that another no vote would have gotten the TWU a better deal or raises you are sadly mistaken. The laws are heavily in favor of the creditors and the fact that the BK laws allow a company to file at the level of liquidity they did shows you how biased against labor the laws are.
 
ThirdSeatHero,
Totally wrong. There is still more work in-house at AA than any other carrier regardless of how you dissect the scope clauses. AMTs per aircraft are a good indicator of scope. AA in 2014 is around 17 AMTs per aircraft, UA at at 10.5 to 1, US at 9.9 to 1, and DL at 11.4 to 1. On jobs the TWU did better, on wages DL seems to have done better, and US/IAM gave up the jobs and lower wages than AA/TWU. The US/IAM transition CBA brought them up to the AA/TWU wages and a second raise due to the TWU BK negotiated agreement. The statement that the AA/TWU CBA is the worst CBA after BK is false.
 
Moving forward, the Associationhas a great opportunity to seize superior wages. Unfortunately they are deeply mired in a reconciliation process (or stalling tactic) and everyday we lose money.

we give give and give I'm sick of giving back pay and benefits and the twu seems to be the best at taken things from us and the Intl twu officers make 250000 plus they take our pay and benefits to keep Union dues .but the company still lays off. One of the many differences between amfa and all the others unions .amfa dose what the members want just because the bk and creditors are there is no need for us to lay down I voted no but I know that dose not matter with twu they do what's best for them not the member ship. That twu kool aid must be dam good for your ass supporters it makes you the lowest payed mechanics in the industry only 5 holidays at time and a half no double time no double and a half on holidays only 5 days of sick time a year first day occurance half pay etc etc hate to tell you it's not kool aid its poison and it has poisoned you and every ass members mind

 

[BeechDriver]

Out of curiosity I just check the seniority lists for Tulsa. There are 61 overhaul mechanics with no licences, 10 with one licence, and 1784 with two licences. All inspectors have both licences. There are 19 line mechanics at the terminal and 2 crew chiefs.

 

[BeechDriver]

Thats 2 line crew chiefs.

 

[700UW]

Guess overspun doesnt realize that US filed chapter 11 twice in less than two years.

 

[Overspeed]

700UW,
So your rolled over twice. Nice. Is that what we should expect from the IAM led Association? Excuses but the truth is in the subtsance of the US/IAM contract. More work outsourced than non-union DL and wages that needed to raised by the TWU BK contract that you claim is terrible. Wake up brother. The IAM did not do as well as the TWU did in BK. Parker beat you senseless and now we should expect the IAM led Association will be different? What's past is prologue.

 

[Overspeed]

dfwgen,
The APA, APFA, and TWU all rolled on their membership by even agreeing to anything with Parker. He wanted the merger with him in charge so he could reap milions at the workers expense. The unions just wanted Horton gone. Did our situation improve by getting rid of the AMR BK gang? The ones that cut the deals have moved on and we are here with the consequences. Never said we had good benefits, just said we were not the worst. Not saying much I know.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

ThirdSeatHero,
Totally wrong. There is still more work in-house at AA than any other carrier regardless of how you dissect the scope clauses. AMTs per aircraft are a good indicator of scope. AA in 2014 is around 17 AMTs per aircraft, UA at at 10.5 to 1, US at 9.9 to 1, and DL at 11.4 to 1. On jobs the TWU did better, on wages DL seems to have done better, and US/IAM gave up the jobs and lower wages than AA/TWU. The US/IAM transition CBA brought them up to the AA/TWU wages and a second raise due to the TWU BK negotiated agreement. The statement that the AA/TWU CBA is the worst CBA after BK is false.
 
 

 
Nice try at deflection - here is your previous post

 
 

dfwgen,
The worst contract out of BK is held by NWA/AMFA. After the BK was over they imposed a deal that only kept 800 AMTs which included managment and union scabs on it. DL AMTs wanted no part of those negotiating tactics as there was no showing of interest after the merger.

 
As I said before - The NWA-AMFA strike ended in 2006 - NWA didn't exit bankruptcy til 2007
 
You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Overspeed]

TSH,
Facts about how many people are employed is not a deflection. It's the truth that all other airlines outsourced more work prior to AMR going to BK. AMR attorneys noted that in their filing that they need to outsource like all the other carriers to be competitive. To end up with more work still in-house even after BK than all other airlines is pretty damn good. If the argument is that we would have been better off voting we will never know for sure but looking at all the other airlines we all know what was going to happen. You do know that the highest paid labor group at industry is the MCTs and they kept their pay rate they voted yes on in 2010. The TWU also told the AMTs that by voting yes on the 2010 TA they would be in a higher pay position to negotiate from in 1113 if it happened. That was true for the MCTs who did get the best deal in BK than any other airline. So not listening to the vote no coalition served them well. Could have served us well too but instead we still listen to the pro-AMFA, vote no coaltion set. Keep it up, it's working great.
 
It's actually pretty simple. AMFA got a contract offer, the turned it down, went on strike, NWA imposed terms. AMFA may have argued against it but the fact is the contract was imposed and validated during the BK. So because AMFA merely accepted the terms of the imposed terms you claim it was not a BK contract.
 
Okay. Fine. AMFA won.You win. We all get it. AMFA's great, best BK or non-BK contract ever negotiated at NWA.
 
Meanwhile in Associationland we are still waiting.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

TSH,
Facts about how many people are employed is not a deflection. It's the truth that all other airlines outsourced more work prior to AMR going to BK. AMR attorneys noted that in their filing that they need to outsource like all the other carriers to be competitive. To end up with more work still in-house even after BK than all other airlines is pretty damn good. If the argument is that we would have been better off voting we will never know for sure but looking at all the other airlines we all know what was going to happen. You do know that the highest paid labor group at industry is the MCTs and they kept their pay rate they voted yes on in 2010. The TWU also told the AMTs that by voting yes on the 2010 TA they would be in a higher pay position to negotiate from in 1113 if it happened. That was true for the MCTs who did get the best deal in BK than any other airline. So not listening to the vote no coalition served them well. Could have served us well too but instead we still listen to the pro-AMFA, vote no coaltion set. Keep it up, it's working great.
 
It's actually pretty simple. AMFA got a contract offer, the turned it down, went on strike, NWA imposed terms. AMFA may have argued against it but the fact is the contract was imposed and validated during the BK. So because AMFA merely accepted the terms of the imposed terms you claim it was not a BK contract.
 
Okay. Fine. AMFA won.You win. We all get it. AMFA's great, best BK or non-BK contract ever negotiated at NWA.
 
Meanwhile in Associationland we are still waiting.

 
Still trying to deflect and drag me into an argument I wasn't making - sorry no going to work
 
You made an initial critique on a flawed premise ... again, your post
 

 
dfwgen,
The worst contract out of BK is held by NWA/AMFA. After the BK was over they imposed a deal that only kept 800 AMTs which included managment and union scabs on it. DL AMTs wanted no part of those negotiating tactics as there was no showing of interest after the merger.

 
These are your words ......
 
"After the BK was over they imposed a deal"  
 
That is flat out incorrect - NWA imposed their LBO after AMFA struck but BEFORE they filed bankruptcy, AMFA settled during bankruptcy
 
You don't know what you're talking about, and the fact that you refuse to acknowledge that your initial statement is clearly incorrect, and continue to try and deflect into arguments I never made just emphasizes how desperate you are to do or say anything to deflect from your own unions obvious short comings  

 

[700UW]

700UW,
So your rolled over twice. Nice. Is that what we should expect from the IAM led Association? Excuses but the truth is in the subtsance of the US/IAM contract. More work outsourced than non-union DL and wages that needed to raised by the TWU BK contract that you claim is terrible. Wake up brother. The IAM did not do as well as the TWU did in BK. Parker beat you senseless and now we should expect the IAM led Association will be different? What's past is prologue.

Rolled over?

You gave concessions OUTSIDE of chapter 11 in 2003. We didn't, two chapter 11 filings by US in less than two years and we had our CBA abrogated.

Guess you want to be like WT and fabricate facts.

Also as far back as 83 you gave concessions with the B and C scale.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

 

[topDawg]

the point i was trying to bring up was we cant have everything our way there is going to have be some compromise. 

Is there a reason so many of you have just given up? One thing I have always respected about the AA employee group is they always had the balls to stand up and say no to things like this. How in the world do you expect to make major concessions in this environment?
 
*note I will say things like having holidays where a MX base shuts down or no 24/7 coverage is not a major concession in my eyes. Giving up 25-30% more work than you do in house now is a major concession. 
 
I have said before, I hope you guys don't give into Parker. Delta +3 + Geo pay + plus AT WORST the current AA scope. There Line and Base should both be happy with that. 
 

Kev3188 and Buck,
I understand we had people at the table and that AMR filed with over $5B in the bank. If you are implying that another no vote would have gotten the TWU a better deal or raises you are sadly mistaken. The laws are heavily in favor of the creditors and the fact that the BK laws allow a company to file at the level of liquidity they did shows you how biased against labor the laws are.
 
ThirdSeatHero,
Totally wrong. There is still more work in-house at AA than any other carrier regardless of how you dissect the scope clauses. AMTs per aircraft are a good indicator of scope. AA in 2014 is around 17 AMTs per aircraft, UA at at 10.5 to 1, US at 9.9 to 1, and DL at 11.4 to 1. On jobs the TWU did better, on wages DL seems to have done better, and US/IAM gave up the jobs and lower wages than AA/TWU. The US/IAM transition CBA brought them up to the AA/TWU wages and a second raise due to the TWU BK negotiated agreement. The statement that the AA/TWU CBA is the worst CBA after BK is false.
 
Moving forward, the Associationhas a great opportunity to seize superior wages. Unfortunately they are deeply mired in a reconciliation process (or stalling tactic) and everyday we lose money.

I disagree here overspeed. 
 
Its a great way to show extra costs and inefficiency. If you are going to be competitive in the marketplace we have today, you are going to have to take work rules that bring you more in-line with MROs. (and I mean airlines MROs like Delta, not AAR) Having a huge % difference of people to tail, not doing 24/7 coverage and having terrible productivity is a fast way to get Park to make huge cuts.    
 
Scope is best shown in the total amount of work sent out via the maintenance budget. As i have said before, number of people per tail is a 1950s way to look at things. We have to learn that not every single person that touches an aircraft part is going to have an A&P. It should be a fair number for each side though. 
What we should, across all airlines, be looking for being in the single digits of outsourcing budget sent out. IMO. (but being smart about productivity and staffing levels.)   

 

[topDawg]

Rolled over?

You gave concessions OUTSIDE of chapter 11 in 2003. We didn't, two chapter 11 filings by US in less than two years and we had our CBA abrogated.

Guess you want to be like WT and fabricate facts.

Also as far back as 83 you gave concessions with the B and C scale.

Don't let the facts get in your way.

Yes rolled over. 
 
US has been a drain on our class and craft for a very long time. As I have pointed out to you, even outside of BKs US have lead the pack in outsourcing. 
And outside of BK now they are on the bottom end of pay. 

 

[700UW]

Before chapter 11 only thing outsourced was engines.

Another WT clone who doesn't understand chapter 11.

You have two choices negotiate by law or face abrogation.

Easy for you to throw stones when you didn't work at US and didn't face what we did.

Are you drinking the WT koolade?

 

[topDawg]

Before chapter 11 only thing outsourced was engines.

Another WT clone who doesn't understand chapter 11.

You have two choices negotiate by law or face abrogation.

Easy for you to throw stones when you didn't work at US and didn't face what we did.

Are you drinking the WT koolade?

example, our engine shops (and the support shops that come along with them) employee ~5,000 people IIRC. 
 
so "just engines" is just thousands of jobs. 
 
You are so focused on airframe overhaul (just like WT is so focused on engine/component work) that you constantly make excuses for LEADING THE INDUSTRY in outsourcing pre BK1 and you act as if that is a stat to be proud of. Congrats 700, you are only helping to destroy our craft.
 
but as long as the IAM tells you 55% of everything getting sent out is great then you will keep repeating it here. 
Simple fact, US leads the industry and had for a long time, in outsourcing. It might be "just engines" or "just this" but you lead the industry. 
 
Oh and btw, WT does the same thing you are doing now. Its "just" airframe overhauls. 

 

[700UW]

Those numbers arent 55% of the work, its 55% of the maintenance spend, big difference.
 
We never did anything but jtd-8, and tays inhouse, never had  the CMFs, RRs or GE for the 737-300/400 757s or 767.