2015 AMT Discussion

[JABORD]

Bob is the same guy who said AA is bluffing and wont file bankruptcy, how did that turn out for you all?

Please don't deny me one of these snippy quips! You've been so hellbent to spin your IAM Pension to us all I have been waiting for a response to my post #596.

 

[DallasConehead]

Trust me, I'm  no fan of the ASSociation, but now that it looks like 2 of our competitors are going to give their AMTs substantial raises. Logic would dictate that this would put more pressure on the company to at least give us something similar. Maybe I'm smoking crack, but the ASSociation might have actually done something right by waiting all this time letting Delta and United ink their deals first. Just think if they hurried and got the deal done ASAP before that happened, at best we probably would have gotten the former Delta rate +3.
 
Brilliant strategy or just dumb luck?   I know, I know it's the latter.

I wouldn't call anything any kind of strategy  just yet. I'll hold off on that observation until our representatives get us a TA to vote on, of which thus far there is nothing and no reliable information from which to even hazard a guess as to when they will EVEN start to negotiate. Can anyone point me to anything in writing that says when they are going to start?

 

[dfw gen]

I wouldn't call anything any kind of strategy  just yet. I'll hold off on that observation until our representatives get us a TA to vote on, of which thus far there is nothing and no reliable information from which to even hazard a guess as to when they will EVEN start to negotiate. Can anyone point me to anything in writing that says when they are going to start?

go to:https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=532855106733475 on facebook it is the associations page now and then the moderator will get pissed off and answer. at the very least people need to go there to vent their opinion. surprisingly they do read it. on a side note i did talk to someone that actually talked to sito at the iam and the jest of the conversation was that they will be at the table in within two weeks. take it for what its worth. sitos phone number is 301-967-4500. if you call someone actually answers unlike the twu that will not answer or return phone calls.

 

[Socplat13]

I understand that the UA LBFO stipulates that all wide body MRO is to be outsourced. If true, that's a ton of work, correct? I mean, that's a complete sell-out. Also, UA's chart states that the health insurance has a max family deductible of between $0 to $300, but the employees cost share is 20% of the total cost. Plans with deductibles that low typically have very high premiums. The chart didn't show the premiums. Probably for a reason. Also, I hear they can outsource the auto mechanics too. Sell-out of the unborn as well who get less vacation. Also, full retro would have equaled $135 million. The LBFO has an $80 million signing bonus. That's a pretty hefty loss. Also, no IBT pension plan as they promised during the election in 2008. I mean that's not surprising since they also promised to get the UA AMTs their UA pension back. Let's see if they bite on the wage and forget everything else. 

 

[D7571987]

Yep the UAL proposal is complete crap. 

 

[bigjets]

I understand that the UA LBFO stipulates that all wide body MRO is to be outsourced. If true, that's a ton of work, correct? I mean, that's a complete sell-out. Also, UA's chart states that the health insurance has a max family deductible of between $0 to $300, but the employees cost share is 20% of the total cost. Plans with deductibles that low typically have very high premiums. The chart didn't show the premiums. Probably for a reason. Also, I hear they can outsource the auto mechanics too. Sell-out of the unborn as well who get less vacation. Also, full retro would have equaled $135 million. The LBFO has an $80 million signing bonus. That's a pretty hefty loss. Also, no IBT pension plan as they promised during the election in 2008. I mean that's not surprising since they also promised to get the UA AMTs their UA pension back. Let's see if they bite on the wage and forget everything else.

Did we lose our wide body OH, or is that part of the 35% AA can outsource?

 

[Overspeed]

I understood UAL and CAL already outsource most of the wide body airframe work. Does this new proposal include outsourcing the PWA engines they do in SFO now?

 

[Kev3188]

I understand that the UA LBFO stipulates that all wide body MRO is to be outsourced. If true, that's a ton of work, correct? I mean, that's a complete sell-out. Also, UA's chart states that the health insurance has a max family deductible of between $0 to $300, but the employees cost share is 20% of the total cost. Plans with deductibles that low typically have very high premiums. The chart didn't show the premiums. Probably for a reason. Also, I hear they can outsource the auto mechanics too. Sell-out of the unborn as well who get less vacation. Also, full retro would have equaled $135 million. The LBFO has an $80 million signing bonus. That's a pretty hefty loss. Also, no IBT pension plan as they promised during the election in 2008. I mean that's not surprising since they also promised to get the UA AMTs their UA pension back. Let's see if they bite on the wage and forget everything else.

Since when are you a fan of maintaining any sort of scope?

 

[Overspeed]

bigjets,
The work in the 35% (now will be adjusted with closing of TASEL) could be narrow or wide body since the langauge doesn't specify. Attachment 1.2 lists the specific work AA wanted to outsource but it wasn't limited to just that work except AA can't exceed the cap. 777 MBV,  767 SIP and Fail Safe, and 757 HC were on the list specifically. Since the 757 and 767 fleet are getting smaller, the 319/321 LC is now going to be done in the line, and new aircraft don't need as much overhaul work, other work will be outsourced. What will it be? I am thinking engine overhaul is the next big area. The new AA wants to be more like the LUS/IAM CBA. Outsource almost all engine overhaul and move the percentage to 50% but add in the AA/TWU language to allow scheduled line work to be done outside the U.S. in places like LHR, GRU, and GIG for example.

 

[Buck]

What ever happened to the mechanics having separate negotiations?

 

[Overspeed]

Buck,
That's a TWU thing. If it was just the TWU the council can make a motion to have separate M&R negotiations. I have not seen any Association negotiating bylaws but I believe both the TWU and IAM default to joint negotiations.

 

[Buck]

Buck,
That's a TWU thing. If it was just the TWU the council can make a motion to have separate M&R negotiations. I have not seen any Association negotiating bylaws but I believe both the TWU and IAM default to joint negotiations.

Ok, so whatever the members of the TWU had in the past the ASSociation can change at will?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I know that you are one of the guys in Tulsa that has tried to do the right thing for the profession. Unfortunately there weren't enough of you there. IMO if you are senior or have a specialized skill and only have five more years or so, don't sweat any of this stuff. But younger A&Ps in Tulsa should really think about what their next move will be, find another job and stay in Tulsa, wait till a RIF and go with what's left, NY and LAX, or try and get somewhere of their choosing prior to a RIF.
The dynamics have changed, the inclusion of the USAIRWAYS guys will tilt the numbers strongly in favor of the line. The line has no interest in agreeing to bottom of the industry to save Tulsa and Tulsa no longer has the numbers to force that into place. That's just reality.
Would a 1200 man layoff affect DFW? I doubt it, it would most defineately affect NY1, ORD and LAX. In a way that a good thing, because that's why it may not happen. Ironically the Juniority pool may work in Tulsa's favor because it limits the options.
Currently Tulsa has 2794 AMTs, the line has 3503.1200 would bring Tulsa down to 1990 seniority. The bottom guy in DFW has 2011, the guy just above him has 2003. Of the bottom 1200 on the line 114 are in DFW . So if all 1200 bumped the system The Bottom 114 in DFW would be effected. If only 500 bumped and passed the test then one guy in DFW could be bumped the others would have to go to JFK\LGA(176), LAX (73), ORD (137), MIA (85), and a few in ATL, BOS, DCA,EWR,PHL,SAN,SEA, & SFO. Pretty much all high cost areas where a 1600 square foot home within 50 miles of work would run at least $300k.
My guess is that most of the bottom 1200, even the bottom 500, would not be swayed by saving Tulsa in exchange for bottom of the industry, Tule is now just another station that is no more secure than JFK, LAX or even EWR. Who knows, with the move towards phase checks and any from B and C checks the line may be able to absorb any reductions made in Tulsa. As the 757s and MD80s go away the Airbus and 737s etc will be coming into heavier and heavier phase checks on the line. The company would be getting more effecient use of their expensive line hangar space in places like MIA, JFK, LGA, BOS,ORD, DFW, LAX, STL ,SFO, PHL,DCA?,CLT, PIT, PHX (Did I leave anyone out? )

Bob good to see you're still watching......  It is what it is.  I am not scared for me.  I am about 250 from the top of seniority in Tulsa.  I also do not expect anyone to take less money for a false promise of any saved jobs anywhere and I think you know that.  We all know there will be lots of changes and that we are not going to like most of them.  I think we all realize that the vast majority of us will be working on the line in the not too distant future.  The most important thing right now is to preserve this job for the next generation and make sure there will be something there for those who come after us.  The A scalers didn't do anything to help us at all and honestly Bob you and I cannot expect to have the retirement they did.  But I think you would agree with me that we need to think about what this job will be like in the future and try to make it better for the next generation or at least try to.  Parker and Company will do what they want no matter how stupid it is and we can't stop them and maybe overhaul maintenance is going away here in the United States.  We have to salvage what we can and adjust to the new airline and it's practices.  There will be many casualties and that saddens me to no end, but hopefully the end result is that we have a better idea of how to fight for what we need. We'll see when the dust settles where we are and were we stand.  But we need to remember that way back when there were people who sacrificed much to get basic benefits that most workers take for granted today.  I feel that we need to hold fast and push for improvements so when someone is hired into this company there is hope for a career and a good retirement.  Time will tell how well we do but I am confident as long as we have guys like you in our leadership who can be the best examples for the rest of us.  Bob, I think we are very fortunate to have guys like you in leadership positions and I hope others realize this.  Hopefully we can navigate through this turbulence and come out strong.  If guys will listen to you we will.  Thank you for all you do.

 

[dfw gen]

Well said

 

[Overspeed]

Oldguy@AA,
Whatever is the final mix of AMTs comes out to be if the new AA follows the US/IAM scope language we should land around 9,000 total on the Title I list combined TWU/IAM. The current list combined is around 11,000 I believe. Since US keeps a high percentage of the narrow body airframe work in-house I bet the new AA wants to keep the majority of CFM56 in-house but outsource all the other engines. CF6-80 volumes will be dropping with all the 767-300 retirements coming up and RB211s and Trents we have already been told are going outside. The big issue will be if the international stations that AA keeps moving work to. Brazil is growing and I haven't heard anyone bring that up. That's not overhaul work, it's line and as far as I know no other U.S. carrier does as much line work in foreign stations with local hires. Look at GRU and GIG's daily work assignments. SCL and EZE are not far behind. BCs in South America may be coming soon. The Association needs to cap the line work that goes overseas.