2015 AMT Discussion

[Buck]

And DL has twice cut it since 2012.
 
A guaranteed wage with raises built in is better than Profit Sharing, DL is slowing going to eliminate it.

The problem with your scenario is Jim Little deciding for the membership and it was one .50 cent raise.

 

[topDawg]

Jobs are going away no matter what. TULE will eventually wake up to the reality. I figure they will not go away completely, but look for a drastic down-sizing there in the next few years. That being said, PAY ME!!

Yet another person who doesn't understand how scope works. 
Also really sad to see some many people who want to give the company so much money when they are making so much money. 
 
"uh yeah I'll take a raise, but I'll pay for it when you lay off two more people below me......." and then call that winning. Yeah, you guys are sure showing Parker.   
 

A lot of people see layoffs as a foregone conclusion if there is any type of substantial raise.  I can't tell you how many times I hear in the breakroom everyday "show me the money" or "Delta plus 3 (or 7)" .  People primarily want the money however short-sighted that is.

It is very short sighted and again shows what I have been talking about. 
 
 
 

I haven't heard one guy say, I'm not going for the money, I say we go for scope because that has worked so well before.

We Voted against 2008 extension because no protection for mci, mci closed twa guys bumped all over. 2010 raise voted down TA because we would give up retiree health for guys under 50. And OH working weekends. Only for everyone to lose retiree health plus pension and afw closes and a lot of TUL work outsourced.

Yeah I'm going for the money.

So basically you want to make as much money as Delta + 3% (but Delta will match next year) 
and send about 25% more of your work out of house than Delta? 
 
That is some logic if I have ever seen it. 
 
And again, it is painfully clear you guys don't understand how scope works. It protects WORK not stations. Stop living in the 1950s, companies need to cut costs. Having 18 maintenance bases, all of which require ferry flights, was a stupid idea from AA. They have been trying to consolidate down to one MX station. Welcome to economics. 
On top of that companies have be trying to get work out of high cost areas like NYC, LAX and CHI. Taxes and EPA issues are a much higher cost/pain in the ass than places like Texas, Georgia and Oklahoma. 
 

Same here...
 
I see these choices.............Take the money.......lose jobs
                                            Save the jobs..........no money
                                            Don't just go for the money..........lose the jobs anyway.
 
Haven't we been duped long enough?
 i for one am not been fooled into saving jobs. Take the money now because the longer we prolong this the better the chance for the economy to take a down turn affecting historical profits..
 
I am sorry if this offends people.

lol "Im sorry I want you to live under a bridge so I can make more" 
 
My bet is you aren't really sorry. JMO
 

If "ALL' union members thought and "ACTED" like you, we would not have the problems we have with division of unions today.
Yes, you dealing with knuckleheads whom cannot grasp the concept of 'solidarity'.
 
Too bad your iam cheerleader is working against you and you have to fight within as well as outside.
Best 2 U!
JMHO,
B) xUT

agreed. 
 

 
 
Where I stand, is to be paid like my peers at the other major airlines. What I would give up? 100% line 50% OH scope. I do expect to get a 27% raise or Delta +3 (in case my math is off) at the DOS, and at LEAST a 9% raise over 5 years (what the agents got) at LEAST 10% 401k CONTRIBUTION (what the FAs got) anything less, then that whole strength in numbers from the union rhetoric is just BS!!!!!
 
This is what I find funny, when the shops here at ORD were sent to TULE there was no outrage from union "brothers" in Tulsa. When we voted to save jobs in 2003 and 2012, did we not see MCI, AFW, TAESL,DTW, MSP, etc etc stations close? I'm not saying the union is to blame or that AA is out to screw the mechanics, business models change, and I'm willing to bet that AA was caught off guard by RR, because AA hired off the street to fill spots at ORD, it's much easier and cheaper to bring in a guy from another station then it is to hire new.
 
My stance is GO FOR THE MONEY!!!!!!!
 
AS I'm sure I don't need to tell you, AA WILL do what is necessary, like go into bankruptcy with $4b in the bank. 

So you start off by saying you are willing to cut a large amount of people (im guessing below you) 
 
 
then turn around and complain because it happened at your station? 
 
Damn that is one of the worst cases of "I gotta get mine" I think i have ever seen. 
 

This statement is why I'm for non Union, except for AMFA. When I say peers, I mean AMTs at other airlines, I compare percentages for raises and 401Ks with other work groups at AA. We should actually fall in some place behind pilots and above everyone else, because of education skill and responsibility.

What I believe is if Tulsa wants AA to have a 100% OH, then maybe TUL should have wage and benefit packages like other MRO facilities. By saying NO to those wages you are killing jobs. By wanting line mechs to accept less pay so OH can have same pay, you're trying to create a socialist utopia.

That sir is unAmerican.


Besides, when has trading pay, work rules, and creating new categories of mechs saved jobs?
GO FOR THE MONEY!!!!!!!!

Vote like a line mechanic, because more then likely you will be one soon. Writing on the wall. Like when AA says they're parking 757 and using GEs on 777-300, TAESL closing was just a fore gone conclusion. When AA already sends wide body OH to China and buys new airplanes that don't require OH for years, AA hasn't said where the A320s will be overhauled, Doug says AA isn't in the MRO business, AA even outsources human resources, This is all hand writing on the wall. If AA was outsourcing all of its line Maint I would be applying at flight check, someone has to do the line work.

Remember TUL doesn't have the numbers any longer, the IAM is in charge for next two years, they already have a 100% line 50% OH scope at usair. This new contract will not be like the past, we are a different company with a different "union". Hopefully better then the last. We will see.

One of the largest MROs in North America makes a heck of a lot more than you do.....on the line. 
 
My question again is if they offer Delta +3 but you are on the "going to get furloughed" list, you and MM are voting hell yes right? Or will you sing a different tune?
 
 
Oh and two more notes, AA HAD to use GE on the 777-300ER. GE is the only engine offered on the 777-200LR, 777-300ER and 777-200LRF. (and the GE9X will be the only engine offered on the 777X) If they wanted Rolls they had to order the 777-200ER which is much smaller. (AFAIK Boeing doesn't offer new 777-300s anymore, even if they did the things only have about 4,000nm of range compared to the 7,000nm of the 777-300ER) 
second the excuse of new aircraft keep getting tossed out, hangar work starts for them in 12-18 months. (first C check) 

 

[MetalMover]

 
 
My question again is if they offer Delta +3 but you are on the "going to get furloughed" list, you and MM are voting hell yes right? Or will you sing a different tune?
 
 
 

Nice spin. As The Who notoriously sang "WE WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN.....
I have voted yes on too many contracts that were supposed to save jobs.......How did that turn out for us?
How many times have the line mechs been advised "IF Y'ALL DON'T LIKE IT, JUST MOVE ON DOWN TO T-TOWN?
How did you feel about that? Were you one those saying "F" the line people....."F" their GEO pay?
 
Please spare me the "I WANT YOU TO LIVE UNDER A BRIDGE SO I CAN HAVE MORE BULLCRAP.....
TULSA COULDN'T GIVE TWO CRAPS WHEN THE LINE GUYS WANTED GEO PAY....I BET YOU DIDN'T CARE IF WE LIVED UNDER A BRIDGE! BUT KNOW THIS......THE WORLD IS ABOUT TO STOP REVOLVING AROUND TULE....
So here is my question to YOU....Do want NO MONEY in exchange for saving jobs? Would you take a pay cut to save jobs?
Where do you draw the line? Oh I'm sorry you don't care about the line, just OH,.
 
Here's your problem....THIS ISN'T THE OLD AA MANAGEMENT WHERE THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR A UNION CALLED THE TWU!
 
DO YOU EXPECT THE LUS IAM PEOPLE TO GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT AA OH??? AFTER THEIR PIT GOT DECIMATED?
 
Oh BTW I was laid off once in my career and guess what? When I got recalled, I came back to a much better paying job with better benefits.  And that was a long long time ago..

 

[Roadking5560]

Bunch of grabbers next thing you know they'll be doing a reach around.

 

[MetalMover]

Bunch of grabbers next thing you know they'll be doing a reach around.

How about you? Wanna take a pay cut to save jobs?

 

[topDawg]

Nice spin. As The Who notoriously sang "WE WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN.....
I have voted yes on too many contracts that were supposed to save jobs.......How did that turn out for us?

Well you are the best in the US so I would say fairly well........having said that,
See this is your problem
 
what jobs have been sent out at AA that were not contractually agreed on? Your scope is 35% 
AA sent out 30% of all of its work in 2014. 
 
So you are 5% under what the max is. You are yelling and screaming about TAESL but again, read your contract. Its not a part of the jobs you agreed to save. (or your union/peers. I'm assuming you voted No)

How many times have the line mechs been advised "IF Y'ALL DON'T LIKE IT, JUST MOVE ON DOWN TO T-TOWN?

Oh GMAFB. Get over the butt hurt, Welcome to the airlines. Stations come and go. Same damn thing happens at Delta. "Just move to Atlanta"
Its simple math, there will be openings where the most work is. Why you guys expect airlines to do MX work in high cost cities simply shows how out of touch with basic economics you are.
 

How did you feel about that? Were you one those saying "F" the line people....."F" their GEO pay?

meh I'm okay with Geo pay. I don't think it will ever really happen in our industry but I am fine with the idea.
 

Please spare me the "I WANT YOU TO LIVE UNDER A BRIDGE SO I CAN HAVE MORE BULLCRAP.....
TULSA COULDN'T GIVE TWO CRAPS WHEN THE LINE GUYS WANTED GEO PAY....I BET YOU DIDN'T CARE IF WE LIVED UNDER A BRIDGE! BUT KNOW THIS......THE WORLD IS ABOUT TO STOP REVOLVING AROUND TULE....

I have never once, not one time in MY LIFE, sugested to Delta that they cut workers for more money. Pay comes and goes. You get your big raise now they are just going to take it when time gets bad. Scope is forever.

and generally when you sign it away it stays that way.
 

So here is my question to YOU....Do want NO MONEY in exchange for saving jobs? Would you take a pay cut to save jobs?

I would take a pay cut at delta to save jobs. I wanted to take more of a pay cut to save work that was sent out during BK. TechOps management would hear nothing about it because they were worried about cutting enough to kiss the pilots asses however.
 

Where do you draw the line? Oh I'm sorry you don't care about the line, just OH,.

I don't take concessions when a company is posting billions in profits and has 15%+ operating margins. Why you union boys feel the need to pay for your raises with concessions is crazy to me.

but people like you is why I'm highly unlikely to vote yes if a drive comes at Delta.
and I'm senior enough I don't have to worry about getting cut. (or bounced out of Atlanta)
And again, I am for our craft. not line. not base. Not Tulsa. not New York. not Atlanta. Nope, I would prefer we all have jobs and all make money.
 

Here's your problem....THIS ISN'T THE OLD AA MANAGEMENT WHERE THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR A UNION CALLED THE TWU!
 
DO YOU EXPECT THE LUS IAM PEOPLE TO GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT AA OH??? AFTER THEIR PIT GOT DECIMATED?

Yes. I expect people who have been f**ked over many times not to be stupid enough to do it again.
Oh and you protect work not bases.

If you don't like the thought of having to move, you are in the wrong industry.
 

Oh BTW I was laid off once in my career and guess what? When I got recalled, I came back to a much better paying job with better benefits.  And that was a long long time ago..

So once again, "it happened to me, it should happen to others!"
Lol aka "I got mine f**k yall"
 
 

 
I still want you and bigjets to answer the question. You would vote yes on a Delta +3 or Delta + 7 but it is going to cause you to be furloughed. You will vote yes right?

Oh no need for all caps. Just having a conversation. No need to get worked up.

 

[1AA]

We can't have scope to protect AMT jobs. With so many groups in the TWU we will always be a victim to outsourcing within our union. A dues paying member is the same to the TWU. Keep the dues flowing regardless who gets the work. Reason number 9,999 we need our own class and craft union. We can't protect ourselves if we can't help ourselves. This will not change with any industrial money sucking union like the TWU, IAM or IBT.

 

[MetalMover]

Well you are the best in the US so I would say fairly well........having said that,
See this is your problem
 
what jobs have been sent out at AA that were not contractually agreed on? Your scope is 35% 
AA sent out 30% of all of its work in 2014. 
 
So you are 5% under what the max is. You are yelling and screaming about TAESL but again, read your contract. Its not a part of the jobs you agreed to save. (or your union/peers. I'm assuming you voted No)
Oh GMAFB. Get over the butt hurt, Welcome to the airlines. Stations come and go. Same damn thing happens at Delta. "Just move to Atlanta"
Its simple math, there will be openings where the most work is. Why you guys expect airlines to do MX work in high cost cities simply shows how out of touch with basic economics you are.
 
meh I'm okay with Geo pay. I don't think it will ever really happen in our industry but I am fine with the idea.
 
I have never once, not one time in MY LIFE, sugested to Delta that they cut workers for more money. Pay comes and goes. You get your big raise now they are just going to take it when time gets bad. Scope is forever.

and generally when you sign it away it stays that way.
 
I would take a pay cut at delta to save jobs. I wanted to take more of a pay cut to save work that was sent out during BK. TechOps management would hear nothing about it because they were worried about cutting enough to kiss the pilots asses however.
 
I don't take concessions when a company is posting billions in profits and has 15%+ operating margins. Why you union boys feel the need to pay for your raises with concessions is crazy to me.

but people like you is why I'm highly unlikely to vote yes if a drive comes at Delta.
and I'm senior enough I don't have to worry about getting cut. (or bounced out of Atlanta)
And again, I am for our craft. not line. not base. Not Tulsa. not New York. not Atlanta. Nope, I would prefer we all have jobs and all make money.
 
Yes. I expect people who have been f**ked over many times not to be stupid enough to do it again.
Oh and you protect work not bases.

If you don't like the thought of having to move, you are in the wrong industry.
 
So once again, "it happened to me, it should happen to others!"
Lol aka "I got mine f**k yall"
 
 

 
I still want you and bigjets to answer the question. You would vote yes on a Delta +3 or Delta + 7 but it is going to cause you to be furloughed. You will vote yes right?

Oh no need for all caps. Just having a conversation. No need to get worked up.

Rather than paraphrase each of your diatribes....I'll sum it up for you.......Voting to save jobs was only temporary...Too many contracts have been voted for under the threat of "vote yes or else."
And yes are right...."stations come and go." Same goes for OH.

 

[topDawg]

We can't have scope to protect AMT jobs. With so many groups in the TWU we will always be a victim to outsourcing within our union. A dues paying member is the same to the TWU. Keep the dues flowing regardless who gets the work. Reason number 9,999 we need our own class and craft union. We can't protect ourselves if we can't help ourselves. This will not change with any industrial money sucking union like the TWU, IAM or IBT.

while i am not a fan of the industrial unions
 
again you currently have the best scope and do the most work of any US carrier. The next closest in work done is non-union Delta then United at ~45-50% sent out. US is in the 55% ball park. 

 

[topDawg]

Rather than paraphrase each of your diatribes....I'll sum it up for you.......Voting to save jobs was only temporary...Too many contracts have been voted for under the threat of "vote yes or else."

How was it temporary? Wtf are you talking about

And yes are right...."stations come and go." Same goes for OH.

uh no. No it doesn't.

Can you stop running from my question please MM? You would vote yes on a Delta +3 or Delta + 7 but it is going to cause you to be furloughed. You will vote yes right?

 

[dfw gen]

Rest assured it will be geared to please 51% of the voters

 

[topDawg]

Rest assured it will be geared to please 51% of the voters

Of course it will.

I don't know if labor will ever see a TA passed by a huge majority again.

because companies will give the minimum
but also because of the "i got mine" and the pie in the sky people.

 

[MetalMover]

How was it temporary? Wtf are you talking about

uh no. No it doesn't.

Can you stop running from my question please MM? You would vote yes on a Delta +3 or Delta + 7 but it is going to cause you to be furloughed. You will vote yes right?

What are you talking about?   The TWu has been pushing TUL favored contracts since the late 70's when I started. We once had double the number of mechanics we have now....
 
So TULE is special? Should be furlough exempted? 
 
And YES I would vote YES if I were to be furloughed. WHY? Because being in this business for all these years has taught me a thing or two. 

 

[Buster CRC]

They will please about 38% scare 8% and get the other 5% with a BS retirement deal.

 

[topDawg]

What are you talking about?   The TWu has been pushing TUL favored contracts since the late 70's when I started. We once had double the number of mechanics we have now....

 No you said "Voting to save jobs was only temporary."
what does that mean exactly? 
 
and you say you had double the mechanics you had now? but thats bad to you. You don't want jobs you want money. You want less mechanics. 
Again you have more work that US but nearly double. If you go to their scope, simple math says, you will not come close to doubling your mechanics. 

So TULE is special? Should be furlough exempted?

Didn't save that.
Again I am talking work not stations.
 
I personally don't see AA moving out of TUL. DFW and CLT make more sense for base maintance but I don't see AA wanting to spend the capital to replace TUL/PIT with a big base in Dallas(more hangars, back shops and engine shops/test cells). JMO. 

And YES I would vote YES if I were to be furloughed. WHY? Because being in this business for all these years has taught me a thing or two.

I don't believe you. 
And clearly you have been taught that voting out work is a way to add jobs. Math doesn't work that way