2015 AMT Discussion

[chilokie1]

Last week the City & County of Tulsa passed an extension of the Vision 2025 tax,
the Tulsa World had a story about a portion of it was to be used to retro fit the remaining
hangars to fit 737 & 319/321's.  Any word on how this will effect AA's future at TULE?

 

[swamt]

 
You are exactly right on.  The company is all over the place playing their shell game.  Look at the agents contract, they get 10 holidays at double time.  From what Bogey is saying, the dispatchers are getting 8 holidays at double time and one half.    No doubt AMTs will be asked to give up something because we do more in house maintenance than the others.  As if it has ever prevented them from the possible headcount reduction in the past..  I would like to think our negotiators are not gonna buy into that again.  From what I have seen in the "town hall videos" with Parker and Isom, they both said it was "pay and benefits" as far as matching Delta or United - whatever the case may be.  That should limit the shell game.  Management at DFW is saying they need to get the contract done cause the company wants to add 30 more trips a day to DFW using US Air tin.  The contract needs to get done so AA's AMTs are legal to work on the US Air aircraft.  Local management is blaming the union for dragging their feet. 

I would have to agree that the union might be dragging their feet, but, for a very different reason than what you guys are being told. They are probably at a huge road block with picking which way to go on all the different ways these two unions do things. It's not just seniority and classification times. I'm sure there are many, many more.  The infighting between the two unions saying their way is better than the other way is going to make some rather large differences. And I am most positive that the IAM is trying to keep the language they have, as they are the ones in control of the nego's for now. Then, on the next contract when the TWU takes over control and are at the nego table the stall out will be the TWU trying to gain everything back that they lost to the IAM way while they were in control.  Back and forth--Back and forth,  a train wreck just waiting to happen, and nightmare after nightmare nego's lasting  way longer than need to in all future nego's with these 2 very different ran unions changing control time and time again, not a good mix and will keep the membership divided from here on out and the co. will use that entirely to their advantage.  Way to go TWU/IAM. That was the worst move they could have ever done as far as the membership goes. There should have been a vote between the TWU and IAM period.  And no I am not saying that so AMFA would have had a chance to get on the ballot, although they would have maybe, there still should have been a vote between the 2 unions even if it were the only 2 on there. The way they just slammed this asso. up the memberships backsides is completely a scam by the 2 industial unions to keep the dues coming in as they both knew they were more than likely getting fired by the new combined membership.

 

[700UW]

100% wrong.

The IAM and TWU are working well together.

Classifications and basic seniority has been settled a long time ago.

And the IAM is head of the Association for now, and not in charge of negotiations, it's a mutual effort.

Stick to AMFA and WN's negotiations, as you are way off on what is going on at AA.

Bottom line is AA will have a JCBA in way shorter time than what has been going on at WN.

How many years has it been now at WN?

 

[ASSociation Clown]

I would have to agree that the union might be dragging their feet, but, for a very different reason than what you guys are being told. They are probably at a huge road block with picking which way to go on all the different ways these two unions do things. It's not just seniority and classification times. I'm sure there are many, many more.  The infighting between the two unions saying their way is better than the other way is going to make some rather large differences. And I am most positive that the IAM is trying to keep the language they have, as they are the ones in control of the nego's for now. Then, on the next contract when the TWU takes over control and are at the nego table the stall out will be the TWU trying to gain everything back that they lost to the IAM way while they were in control.  Back and forth--Back and forth,  a train wreck just waiting to happen, and nightmare after nightmare nego's lasting  way longer than need to in all future nego's with these 2 very different ran unions changing control time and time again, not a good mix and will keep the membership divided from here on out and the co. will use that entirely to their advantage.  Way to go TWU/IAM. That was the worst move they could have ever done as far as the membership goes. There should have been a vote between the TWU and IAM period.  And no I am not saying that so AMFA would have had a chance to get on the ballot, although they would have maybe, there still should have been a vote between the 2 unions even if it were the only 2 on there. The way they just slammed this asso. up the memberships backsides is completely a scam by the 2 industial unions to keep the dues coming in as they both knew they were more than likely getting fired by the new combined membership.

 
Or maybe they are on the same page and the company just refuses to negotiate the improvements being demanded by us--the members/employees?  It is the same situation at United and Southwest in that the company is not giving the language that we want.  I am sure if you told Southwest to write whatever language that they want, you would have the money tomorrow and a crappy contract.  That is the same at United where they gave them the money but a bunch of crappy language.  So I often ask this question of my coworkers here in Miami of why is it when it is AA, we believe the company will do the right thing on the language side, while it is a struggle at Southwest and United?  Why is it the unions fault at AA, but the company's fault at Southwest and United?  When we are all thinking alike at all three airlines, and point the finger at those who have the money, is when we will all get rewarded with good contracts, much like the pilots and flight attendants do contract after contract. Why do we rally around the pilots or flight attendants unions when they blame the company, but yet blame our union for the same issue and give the company a free pass?
 
This is in no, way, shape or form an endorsement of the association, but rather to point out the obvious and ask why the double-standard.  

 

[1AA]

100% wrong.
The IAM and TWU are working well together.
Classifications and basic seniority has been settled a long time ago.
And the IAM is head of the Association for now, and not in charge of negotiations, it's a mutual effort.
Stick to AMFA and WN's negotiations, as you are way off on what is going on at AA.
Bottom line is AA will have a JCBA in way shorter time than what has been going on at WN.
How many years has it been now at WN?

Your mistaken on your version of getting along. They have their differences. The negotiations are moving slow. No significant progress. This affects us not you. We are losing thousands of dollars for every month that goes by. So shut your trap when it comes to telling us that negotiations are moving along considering this has absolutely nothing to do with you in any way, shape or form. Your just a cheerleader for the IAM. We are the players.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
Or maybe they are on the same page and the company just refuses to negotiate the improvements being demanded by us--the members/employees?  It is the same situation at United and Southwest in that the company is not giving the language that we want.  I am sure if you told Southwest to write whatever language that they want, you would have the money tomorrow and a crappy contract.  That is the same at United where they gave them the money but a bunch of crappy language.  So I often ask this question of my coworkers here in Miami of why is it when it is AA, we believe the company will do the right thing on the language side, while it is a struggle at Southwest and United?  Why is it the unions fault at AA, but the company's fault at Southwest and United?  When we are all thinking alike at all three airlines, and point the finger at those who have the money, is when we will all get rewarded with good contracts, much like the pilots and flight attendants do contract after contract. Why do we rally around the pilots or flight attendants unions when they blame the company, but yet blame our union for the same issue and give the company a free pass?
 
This is in no, way, shape or form an endorsement of the association, but rather to point out the obvious and ask why the double-standard.  

Very good post.  You make a very good point too.  But one reason we do not always believe the union here is that they have been guilty of misinformation and lies in the past.  I remember in 89 when AA was looking for concessions after record profits the TWU was spreading rumors in DFW that Tulsa would cross picket lines.  They told us in Tulsa that DFW and ORD would cross and other lies that led the membership to vote yes on the same TA that we had voted no on except the one that was voted in did not have any back pay that the first one had.  Pretty shrewd.  Of course those of us who voted no and tried to get everyone else to vote no were labeled as rabble.  But after seeing what I have seen and hearing from known liars and those who I have not known to lie, in this case I actually believe the union.  The company is obviously wanting to continue the concessions that they now hold over us and our negotiators are not willing.  AA would hope that if they spread their lies to the membership they in turn will pressure the association to settle quickly and thus help AA keep screwing our ears off.  If Delta gets 100% sick pay, 10 holidays and 7  weeks of vacation then that is what I expect.  I do not consider AA's version where they offer Delta plus 3% wages while offering 50% less of every benefit others at Delta and here at AA have enjoyed since day one of their employment.  I hope the negotiating committee agrees.

 

[Vortilon]

 
Or maybe they are on the same page and the company just refuses to negotiate the improvements being demanded by us--the members/employees?  It is the same situation at United and Southwest in that the company is not giving the language that we want.  I am sure if you told Southwest to write whatever language that they want, you would have the money tomorrow and a crappy contract.  That is the same at United where they gave them the money but a bunch of crappy language.  So I often ask this question of my coworkers here in Miami of why is it when it is AA, we believe the company will do the right thing on the language side, while it is a struggle at Southwest and United?  Why is it the unions fault at AA, but the company's fault at Southwest and United?  When we are all thinking alike at all three airlines, and point the finger at those who have the money, is when we will all get rewarded with good contracts, much like the pilots and flight attendants do contract after contract. Why do we rally around the pilots or flight attendants unions when they blame the company, but yet blame our union for the same issue and give the company a free pass?
 
This is in no, way, shape or form an endorsement of the association, but rather to point out the obvious and ask why the double-standard.  

 
Not the union's fault?  How short of memory do you have?  How is it that (for example) that facilities maintenance and automotive are receiving .80 more per hour base pay than an AMT?  It's that kind of sneaky shite that pushed Sim Techs past us in pay and benefits.  It is yet another example of the TWU and their social engineering of the contact at the expense of the AMTs.  Simply put, it just devalues our license pay - just like skill pay.  Then, when the AMTs point it out - they are called elitists and greedy.  It is never the other way around.  Why can't AA AMTs negotiate better?  We have boat anchors around our necks because the TWU along with the IAM, now have to represent like  10 other work groups - all with Me Too clauses. 
 
The company isn't blameless, they are right in there with them - the TWU.  I have never seen the company do anything as fast as when they produced 15,000 AA AMT & related signatures to the NMB to prevent AMFA from getting on the ballot a few years back after the IBT submitted all their forged ballots.  We are talking a matter of hours.
 
Those are just two recent examples, there are many more.

 

[Vortilon]

100% wrong.

The IAM and TWU are working well together.

Classifications and basic seniority has been settled a long time ago.

And the IAM is head of the Association for now, and not in charge of negotiations, it's a mutual effort.

Stick to AMFA and WN's negotiations, as you are way off on what is going on at AA.

Bottom line is AA will have a JCBA in way shorter time than what has been going on at WN.

How many years has it been now at WN?

 
I have said this before, when you are already the highest paid in the industry, with the best benefits package, and (real profit sharing) to boot it makes negotiating for better a lot harder.  Likewise for the poor SWA  AMTs having to suffer under such poor working conditions, I doubt any SWA AMTs are stressing over taking their time and doing it right.
Even if we get a contract this week, we will still be a long way from them in pay and benefits with a crappy profit sharing formula to boot.  So there is that.

 

[ASSociation Clown]

 
Not the union's fault?  How short of memory do you have?  How is it that (for example) that facilities maintenance and automotive are receiving .80 more per hour base pay than an AMT?  It's that kind of sneaky shite that pushed Sim Techs past us in pay and benefits.  It is yet another example of the TWU and their social engineering of the contact at the expense of the AMTs.  Simply put, it just devalues our license pay - just like skill pay.  Then, when the AMTs point it out - they are called elitists and greedy.  It is never the other way around.  Why can't AA AMTs negotiate better?  We have boat anchors around our necks because the TWU along with the IAM, now have to represent like  10 other work groups - all with Me Too clauses. 
 
The company isn't blameless, they are right in there with them - the TWU.  I have never seen the company do anything as fast as when they produced 15,000 AA AMT & related signatures to the NMB to prevent AMFA from getting on the ballot a few years back after the IBT submitted all their forged ballots.  We are talking a matter of hours.
 
Those are just two recent examples, there are many more.

 
I can't disagree with what you're saying, just looking at the scenario in front of us at real time. 

 

[Real tired]

Very good post.  You make a very good point too.  But one reason we do not always believe the union here is that they have been guilty of misinformation and lies in the past.  I remember in 89 when AA was looking for concessions after record profits the TWU was spreading rumors in DFW that Tulsa would cross picket lines.  They told us in Tulsa that DFW and ORD would cross and other lies that led the membership to vote yes on the same TA that we had voted no on except the one that was voted in did not have any back pay that the first one had.  Pretty shrewd.  Of course those of us who voted no and tried to get everyone else to vote no were labeled as rabble.  But after seeing what I have seen and hearing from known liars and those who I have not known to lie, in this case I actually believe the union.  The company is obviously wanting to continue the concessions that they now hold over us and our negotiators are not willing.  AA would hope that if they spread their lies to the membership they in turn will pressure the association to settle quickly and thus help AA keep screwing our ears off.  If Delta gets 100% sick pay, 10 holidays and 7  weeks of vacation then that is what I expect.  I do not consider AA's version where they offer Delta plus 3% wages while offering 50% less of every benefit others at Delta and here at AA have enjoyed since day one of their employment.  I hope the negotiating committee agrees.

Good one !!  They did that to you, huh?
 
That reminds me of when we voted no for one of the IAM's turds, they told us we were "confused" and didn't "vote correctly" and we were forced to re-vote until we "got it right".
 
They even sent letters to the wives saying "Dear Mrs. so-and-so, your husband is so confused.  If you're concerned about your future, help him decide to vote correctly this time."
 
Top that one !!!

 

[700UW]

That was Dave Siegel CEO of US who sent the letters to the spouses, not the IAM.
 
And Siegel was planning on holding his own revote.
 
So we could have two CBAs abrogated instead of one.

 

[Real tired]

 
Not the union's fault?  How short of memory do you have?  How is it that (for example) that facilities maintenance and automotive are receiving .80 more per hour base pay than an AMT?  It's that kind of sneaky shite that pushed Sim Techs past us in pay and benefits.  It is yet another example of the TWU and their social engineering of the contact at the expense of the AMTs.  Simply put, it just devalues our license pay - just like skill pay.  Then, when the AMTs point it out - they are called elitists and greedy.  It is never the other way around.  Why can't AA AMTs negotiate better?  We have boat anchors around our necks because the TWU along with the IAM, now have to represent like  10 other work groups - all with Me Too clauses. 
 
The company isn't blameless, they are right in there with them - the TWU.  I have never seen the company do anything as fast as when they produced 15,000 AA AMT & related signatures to the NMB to prevent AMFA from getting on the ballot a few years back after the IBT submitted all their forged ballots.  We are talking a matter of hours.
 
Those are just two recent examples, there are many more.

Many on this side feel the same way.  We are just suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome, so I guess we know what is to become so we're Ok with it.  That's probably why you don't see any posts from too many of us.  We're happy as long as anything isn't being taken.
 
And also, no one is calling you an elitist for being a professional and trying to fight for something better.  And if they do, just look at the person who's doing the name calling.  And besides that, they called the steel strikers back in 1892, at the Homestead Plant up here in Pittsburgh, elitist's too, when they struck against Carnegie, and died at the hands of the Pinkerton's for something better for their families.
 
Keep fighting ...... elitist.

 

[Real tired]

Here's a little history lesson on how the Association was formed between the TWU and IAM:
 
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2006/04/02/Cultures-actually-clash-in-US-Airways-America-West-merger/stories/200604020236

 

[swamt]

100% wrong.

The IAM and TWU are working well together.

Classifications and basic seniority has been settled a long time ago.

And the IAM is head of the Association for now, and not in charge of negotiations, it's a mutual effort.

Stick to AMFA and WN's negotiations, as you are way off on what is going on at AA.

Bottom line is AA will have a JCBA in way shorter time than what has been going on at WN.

How many years has it been now at WN?

1- So you say they are working very well together, huh?
     Can you provide evidence?
2- So you say classification and seniority has been settled a long time ago, really?  So which way did they go 700?  TWU or IAM 
     way? Please enlighten us.
3- So the IAM is in charge of the association and not negotiations, so, who is in charge of the negotiations? TWU or IAM since the 
    IAM is in charge the few years? Please enlighten us.
4- You butt in to everybody's business union and non-union plus a lot of other stuff out here so don't tell me stick to anything.
5- Of coarse AA will have a JCBA before we will settle our current contract because of who is representing them and they are 
    always agreeing to everything the company throws out there, pretty easy to nego that crap.  But they will NOT nego a JCBA 
    faster than AMFA did with the AT aquisition and the lame teamsters industrial union.
6- On current contract nego's, it's been 3 years and 8 months to be exact.  How long has it been so far for the TWU and IAM? 
    And what start date do you want to go by?
 
Any more questions???

 

[swamt]

 
Or maybe they are on the same page and the company just refuses to negotiate the improvements being demanded by us--the members/employees?  It is the same situation at United and Southwest in that the company is not giving the language that we want.  I am sure if you told Southwest to write whatever language that they want, you would have the money tomorrow and a crappy contract.  That is the same at United where they gave them the money but a bunch of crappy language.  So I often ask this question of my coworkers here in Miami of why is it when it is AA, we believe the company will do the right thing on the language side, while it is a struggle at Southwest and United?  Why is it the unions fault at AA, but the company's fault at Southwest and United?  When we are all thinking alike at all three airlines, and point the finger at those who have the money, is when we will all get rewarded with good contracts, much like the pilots and flight attendants do contract after contract. Why do we rally around the pilots or flight attendants unions when they blame the company, but yet blame our union for the same issue and give the company a free pass?
 
This is in no, way, shape or form an endorsement of the association, but rather to point out the obvious and ask why the double-standard.  

See post below. It pretty well sums it up.
 

Very good post.  You make a very good point too.  But one reason we do not always believe the union here is that they have been guilty of misinformation and lies in the past.  I remember in 89 when AA was looking for concessions after record profits the TWU was spreading rumors in DFW that Tulsa would cross picket lines.  They told us in Tulsa that DFW and ORD would cross and other lies that led the membership to vote yes on the same TA that we had voted no on except the one that was voted in did not have any back pay that the first one had.  Pretty shrewd.  Of course those of us who voted no and tried to get everyone else to vote no were labeled as rabble.  But after seeing what I have seen and hearing from known liars and those who I have not known to lie, in this case I actually believe the union.  The company is obviously wanting to continue the concessions that they now hold over us and our negotiators are not willing.  AA would hope that if they spread their lies to the membership they in turn will pressure the association to settle quickly and thus help AA keep screwing our ears off.  If Delta gets 100% sick pay, 10 holidays and 7  weeks of vacation then that is what I expect.  I do not consider AA's version where they offer Delta plus 3% wages while offering 50% less of every benefit others at Delta and here at AA have enjoyed since day one of their employment.  I hope the negotiating committee agrees.

Good points.  And there were many, many more.
 

 
Not the union's fault?  How short of memory do you have?  How is it that (for example) that facilities maintenance and automotive are receiving .80 more per hour base pay than an AMT?  It's that kind of sneaky shite that pushed Sim Techs past us in pay and benefits.  It is yet another example of the TWU and their social engineering of the contact at the expense of the AMTs.  Simply put, it just devalues our license pay - just like skill pay.  Then, when the AMTs point it out - they are called elitists and greedy.  It is never the other way around.  Why can't AA AMTs negotiate better?  We have boat anchors around our necks because the TWU along with the IAM, now have to represent like  10 other work groups - all with Me Too clauses. 
 
The company isn't blameless, they are right in there with them - the TWU.  I have never seen the company do anything as fast as when they produced 15,000 AA AMT & related signatures to the NMB to prevent AMFA from getting on the ballot a few years back after the IBT submitted all their forged ballots.  We are talking a matter of hours.
 
Those are just two recent examples, there are many more.

Correct, the co. is not blameless, but these two unions are more to blame for over the last several decades, I believe since 1983-that rings a bell.