2015 AMT Discussion

[topDawg]

Really? What do you know about me? I have a hunch I have been in this business way longer than you? I'm helping management destroy our craft? How do you figure? I am not being selfish, just realistic.

You have told me before you have no problem taking the money and running. 

So yes, selling out everyone below you(before you even have a JCBA offer btw) is helping management. You constantly post on here how it is just about the money. 

You talk a good game being non union....

Why do people like you run back to this? I'm sorry Delta treats us better than your company treats you. You think that means I don't know anything about unions? Well that is a stupid assumption on your part. 
 

The days of of shutting an airline down by means of striking are long over. The government will NOT release any union to strike an airline. Look at UA/CO....Those days are gone my friend.

I am looking at them, they had money tossed at them for more outsource, s**ty insurance and a b-scale. 
How would you have voted on the last UA TA? My guess is yes, which tells me all I need to know about you. 
 

You want to see us AA mechanics play hardball with the company

Hard ball? I don't think I have ever said such a thing. 

 

while YOU keep getting nice profit sharing checks. It's always nicer to look in from the outside.

Lol ah yes that is why I am doing it. (shhh big secret I am a big Delta spy trying to keep the unions down. Don't tell anyone.) 
 

I have news for you, OUR contract allows for a lot more outsourcing than currently is exercised by the company.

Sad when you don't even know your own contract. The 2016 total year data isn't out yet (form 41) but as of last year they had about 4% more to go. (of the total budget) 
More than likely just with the loss of volume in MD80 work that will cover a good chunk of that. 
 

The scope that you refer to is short lived. Most new aircraft will be have the heavier checks outsourced. And we are taking delivery of new aircraft all the time.

What does that have to do with anything? Your scope is 35% of maintenance budget and a % of line maintenance can be sent out. No sun set clause no aircraft types (like United's scope)
It will be 35% till you have a JCBA. Period.   
 

You are putting the TWU up on a pedestal they do not deserve. They were the FIRST union to begin GIVING mechanic jobs away to fleet service. They first to give the company B scale.
Delta has been generous to you to keep unions OUT. The TWU has been more than accommodating to company demands to keep themselves IN.

B-scale isn't outsourcing. 
Also I said post 9/11 you guys have had they best scope. You have the best scope now. I didn't say anything about pay or work rules. 
 

 

[MetalMover]

You have told me before you have no problem taking the money and running.
So yes, selling out everyone below you(before you even have a JCBA offer btw) is helping management. You constantly post on here how it is just about the money. 
Yes, tired of getting screwed and giving concessions WITHOUT getting anything in return for our sacrifices!
 
Why do people like you run back to this? I'm sorry Delta treats us better than your company treats you. You think that means I don't know anything about unions? Well that is a stupid assumption on your part. 
YOU'RE the one assuming things about me!
 
I am looking at them, they had money tossed at them for more outsource, s**ty insurance and a b-scale. 
Then look at them, not us at AA. We've never had money tossed at us and they got what they wanted regardless.
How would you have voted on the last UA TA? My guess is yes, which tells me all I need to know about you. 
WRONG.....Making assumptions again I see.
 
Hard ball? I don't think I have ever said such a thing. 
Then what are your constant sermon like postings all about?

 
Lol ah yes that is why I am doing it. (shhh big secret I am a big Delta spy trying to keep the unions down. Don't tell anyone.) 
Hysterical......Then you are a big advocate of the TWU for their outstanding outsourcing record.Then why not join a union?
 
Sad when you don't even know your own contract. The 2016 total year data isn't out yet (form 41) but as of last year they had about 4% more to go. (of the total budget) 
More than likely just with the loss of volume in MD80 work that will cover a good chunk of that. 
I know my contract well, I've been leaving under a slew of them my entire career.
 
What does that have to do with anything? Your scope is 35% of maintenance budget and a % of line maintenance can be sent out. No sun set clause no aircraft types (like United's scope)
It will be 35% till you have a JCBA. Period.   
Again. why not let the TWU represent YOU at Delta and let them work wonders for you? They'll agree to give up profit sharing away for a measly one time raise on your behalf WITHOUT the membership having a say!
 
B-scale isn't outsourcing. 
Also I said post 9/11 you guys have had they best scope. You have the best scope now. I didn't say anything about pay or work rules. 
Maybe you should......You like to brag about our great scope but ignore all the other goodies we lost. You have to include the whole package of TWU goodies. Not just hand pick the things you like.

 

[conehead777]

I hate to break it to you, but the TWU is the only reason why our industry is still in a okay spot for scope recapture. You guys have had the best scope, by far, in the industry since 9/11. 
 

Why would I do that? So that I can have someone like you constantly trying to outsource me and take my food from my mouth? I'll pass. 
 

I'm not preaching. I believe I just said its people like you who are helping managements destroy our craft.
Not really preaching.

ill take your delta pay and profit sharing you can have my scope any day of week. You haven't lived under the twu lousy contracts save jobs for pay cuts let me tell you something after the ink is dry the company layed the guys off any how for other reasons then the scope. I'm sick and tired of losing money I have 31 years I care more about pay and benefits. If the company wants to lay off they will . The twu has never done anything to stop it. I'm tired of people like you who do not suffer under the twu telling me how I should vote, how I should think I'm getting older I can't stand another losing contract in pay and benefits. And I'm not helping management. I want what we deserve pay wise . And I would have voted no on that UAl contract no retro . Retro is better then bonus .

 

[swamt]

ill take your delta pay and profit sharing you can have my scope any day of week. You haven't lived under the twu lousy contracts save jobs for pay cuts let me tell you something after the ink is dry the company layed the guys off any how for other reasons then the scope. I'm sick and tired of losing money I have 31 years I care more about pay and benefits. If the company wants to lay off they will . The twu has never done anything to stop it. I'm tired of people like you who do not suffer under the twu telling me how I should vote, how I should think I'm getting older I can't stand another losing contract in pay and benefits. And I'm not helping management. I want what we deserve pay wise . And I would have voted no on that UAl contract no retro . Retro is better then bonus .

Retro is always better than bonus.  Retro= % of base increases that will continue to compound, not with a one time paid bonus. Retro is an on going and effects all future raises, bonus does not. Retro includes all pay including OT for the years past, bonus does not. Retro also goes towards 401 K and retirement accounts, bonus does not.  Retro helps hold the co accountable for their part in stall tactics and delays, bonus does not.  Retro is taxed at your regular % rate per your W4 exceptions, bonuses are taxed at a much higher rate (just because it is called a bonus) and can be as high as 39-41% or even higher in other cases. Many people do not think about the differences between Retro and a bonus.  I am sure there are even more examples to throw out there, but these were the ones that stood out at the top of the list.  Oh and BTW, there is no tax laws that prohibit any co from paying their employees retro as SWA has tried to indicate to us.  They have paid Retro in the past. UPS has and will be paying Retro again as someone has indicated that UPS puts the retro in a different account to gain interest while waiting to pay it out, smart move by UPS, even though THEY are making the interest off your money, which is why any time you get retro you should always ask for the interest that every employee has missed out on.  Instead the co gets the retro interest.  Please anyone feel free to throw some more examples and discuss this. More people need to get educated on the differences. It's a bigger difference than most realize.  Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[bigjets]

1. 
   [SIZE=12pt]The TWU and IAM agree that seniority list integration for each of the four employee groups listed in Paragraph 1 of this Agreement shall be based on the date of each employee[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]’s [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]entry into the basic classification, as set forth in the existing Collective Bargaining Agreements and the current seniority lists maintained by American and US Airways for each such group. To the extent that two or more employees have the same date of entry into the Classification, placement on the applicable integrated seniority list as to those employees shall be determined by the date of hire, or if that is also the same, the last four digits of their social security number, with the employee with the lower number being assigned a lower seniority number on the list (having higher seniority). [/SIZE]
   

 
[SIZE=12pt]This will not be good for us older guys. Instead of getting higher seniority depending on our age, you get the higher seniority depending on last 4 of SSN.[/SIZE]

 

[chilokie1]

 

1. 
   [SIZE=12pt]The TWU and IAM agree that seniority list integration for each of the four employee groups listed in Paragraph 1 of this Agreement shall be based on the date of each employee[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]’s [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]entry into the basic classification, as set forth in the existing Collective Bargaining Agreements and the current seniority lists maintained by American and US Airways for each such group. To the extent that two or more employees have the same date of entry into the Classification, placement on the applicable integrated seniority list as to those employees shall be determined by the date of hire, or if that is also the same, the last four digits of their social security number, with the employee with the lower number being assigned a lower seniority number on the list (having higher seniority). [/SIZE]
   

 
[SIZE=12pt]This will not be good for us older guys. Instead of getting higher seniority depending on our age, you get the higher seniority depending on last 4 of SSN.[/SIZE]



 

 
They need to rethink this if this is true, the use of one's SSN on a public document (even a portion of it) is really 
not smart.  There is a reason entities have quit using it, why add anything to a contract language that will unnecessarily
add another negative to it. I'am assuming the IAM used it on their's, if so why would you not want to change it. There is
only a few guys with my hire on date (and one of those just left to join the dark side LOL) so I can't imagine age being 
the deciding factor that big of an issue.  And are we not supposed to respect our elders?

 

[700UW]

It's been a done deal for two years and was made public at the time.

Premium seniority hasn't been settled.

 

[chilokie1]

It's been a done deal for two years and was made public at the time.
Premium seniority hasn't been settled.

This is the first I heard of an agreement that puts a portion of my SSN on the senority
list, that I consider a public document. Ok 700 answer me this, a LUS inspecter with 10 years
as an inspecter & ten years as a A&P before that, and a LAA inspector with 2 years as an inspector & 19 years as an A&P before that. Who has the highest senority? You said it
was settled 2 years ago, since you knew that you should be able to answer this simple
question

 

[chilokie1]

That is right you can't ! As you mentioned the premium senority is far
From settled. Which in turn makes the agreement worthless since it
would completely change lists.

 

[Docker]

This is the first I heard of an agreement that puts a portion of my SSN on the senority
list, that I consider a public document. Ok 700 answer me this, a LUS inspecter with 10 years
as an inspecter & ten years as a A&P before that, and a LAA inspector with 2 years as an inspector & 19 years as an A&P before that. Who has the highest senority? You said it
was settled 2 years ago, since you knew that you should be able to answer this simple
question

In your example the way it is done at LUS, the LAA mechanic at 21 years would have a year more of senority than the LUS at 20 years, I belive that is the part that is settled. It would depend on when the inspection time was started for a LUS employee as far as inspection senority goes. At LUS the basic mechanic time starts when you are hired in as a mechanic or inspector.  At LUS your premium time (Lead or Inspector) continues accuring on a side list whether you are holding a premium position or not. I think this is the area they are still trying to iron it out. 

 

[chilokie1]

In your example the way it is done at LUS, the LAA mechanic at 21 years would have a year more of senority than the LUS at 20 years, I belive that is the part that is settled. It would depend on when the inspection time was started for a LUS employee as far as inspection senority goes. At LUS the basic mechanic time starts when you are hired in as a mechanic or inspector.  At LUS your premium time (Lead or Inspector) continues accuring on a side list whether you are holding a premium position or not. I think this is the area they are still trying to iron it out. 

 
The difference is huge !!! If they could just iron it out it would have been done already. What will happen is we will
get a contract with the seniority language to decided later, why? Because it will piss off one side so bad the contract
would have a much harder chance of getting passed.

 

[Kev3188]

I still say DOH might be the best way forward here. Short term pain, but it's the easiest to apply on a system level, and there's no "if this, then that" carve outs that other methods bring...

 

[2ndGENAMT]

Can any LUS guys say how many people are on the Mechanic seniority list for the LUS IAM list? And have they been hiring in the last six months?

 

[Living in Reality]

The IAM way of seniority can also be a life saver, example. if you hired in at LUAA as a janitor and worked your way up to AMT you will have seniority in ALL classifications you worked say 20 years, 5 years Janitor, 5 years Parts cleaner, 5 years OSM, 5 years AMT and in the event of layoff, you can reduce yourself with or without that time spent in other classes. If you were LUS and you had 20 years as AMT only, you survive, they go out the door. The two sides need to find out and figure who has done what the past 20 years and where! If I am wrong, please correct me. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I still say DOH might be the best way forward here. Short term pain, but it's the easiest to apply on a system level, and there's no "if this, then that" carve outs that other methods bring...

No it's not.  Why should someone who was a fleet service clerk for 5 years and then an AMT for 10 years get 15 years seniority as an AMT?  This is not fair in any way shape or form.  The reason is they can always bump back to fleet service in a layoff where an AMT who hired in as an AMT cannot bump into another job title.  I suggest a revolutionary idea.  How about we use COMMON SENSE and use occupational seniority in each job title.  LAA out numbers LUS about two to one so just do it the LAA way and lets get on with our lives.  Your way would not cause short term pain it would cause permanent pain when LAA guys continue to be outbid by LUS guys with less occupational seniority but getting credit for DOH.