2015 AMT Discussion

[swamt]

AANOTOK--

No worries! For the record I was only speaking of integration within any given classification (maintenance, fleet service, etc), and not the ability to jump from the ramp to AMT, or vice verse. I totally understand what's at stake. At the same time, I've already been through the merger wringer, and have the perspective of hindsight.

You guys can either spend the next 5 years sorting out "if this, then that" type of stuff, or get busy getting the JCBA you deserve.

Exactly...

 

[Rogallo]

Uhhhhh, because vacation accrual is based on time with company, not time in individual classification. 

 
Thank You, Mr Obvious!
 
And like the rest of the IGM crowd you failed to answer the question.
 

"Punish" is a two-way street. We are discussing the application of Seniority to a M&E CBA. The commitment to enter the Class & Craft the individual makes should prevail. Too many examples can be had of fleet service folks that only took interest to qualify for our Craft when incentivized, i.e. threats of upcoming job reductions in fleet service or promises of tuition reimbursement as we saw in early 90's. Should I be able to leapfrog a mechanic that began his participation in the Craft before me but I can now gain on him by adding two years of my previous fleet time to my total? No. This is the flawed distinction between Industrial vs. Craft Representation.

 
Finally someone with a logical explanation to the question.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Thank You, Mr Obvious!
 
And like the rest of the IGM crowd you failed to answer the question.
 
 
 

Since vacation accrual is based on time with company, then should it NOT be treated the same when it comes to picking?
This has nothing to do with IGM. So if you had say 40 years as a mechanic...From day one, you were always a mechanic. Now another employee, say a fleet service clerk, has 41 years in that classification. He just got his licenses. He comes over to aircraft maintenance, you would have no problem with him being right above you as a mechanic? Would it matter if that employee was a gate agent? Secretary? 
 Sorry, that is not IGM, it is called PAYING YOUR DUES!

 

[conehead777]

Thank You, Mr Obvious!
 
And like the rest of the IGM crowd you failed to answer the question.
 

 
Finally someone with a logical explanation to the question.

no it's I was there before you as a mechanic. And just because you have been in another department longer dose not give you the right to jump ahead . You can bid your vac but your not biding your shift are days off by your doh . I'm sorry if I did not use the proper words are spell good enough for you. But you get the picture

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
Why not?
 
Why should someone be punished for changing jobs within the company by losing seniority? That's anti-union!

Awarding someone seniority from another job classification is not anti-union.  It's pro-company.  I also loved the IGM reference in an earlier post.  First I would love to know where the heck whatever it is I got?  Sounds to me like you want yours and to hell with me and everyone else that might have occupational seniority on you. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

And most likely the premium will be decided by an arbitrator. Maybe it will be determined by location ALA Kasher.

No way we should let anything this important go to an arbitrator.  It needs to go to a vote of the memberships.  In my recollection we have never won an arbitration.  This is a no brainer to anyone who is not drinking the IAM koolaid.  We need to fight this with every resource we have.  A vote by the membership is the only fair way since we are the ones who will be affected by it and not some corrupt arbitrator.

 

[CMH_GSE]

Life isn't fair.
If it was, we would have had a representation vote.
We will get no vote and like it.

 

[MetalMover]

No way we should let anything this important go to an arbitrator.  It needs to go to a vote of the memberships.  In my recollection we have never won an arbitration.  This is a no brainer to anyone who is not drinking the IAM koolaid.  We need to fight this with every resource we have.  A vote by the membership is the only fair way since we are the ones who will be affected by it and not some corrupt arbitrator.

I agree.....But we already got screwed by the ASSociation by not having a vote on it. 

 

[700UW]

You won the Kasher Arbitration.

 

[Real tired]

No it's not.  Why should someone who was a fleet service clerk for 5 years and then an AMT for 10 years get 15 years seniority as an AMT?  This is not fair in any way shape or form.  The reason is they can always bump back to fleet service in a layoff where an AMT who hired in as an AMT cannot bump into another job title.  I suggest a revolutionary idea.  How about we use COMMON SENSE and use occupational seniority in each job title.  LAA out numbers LUS about two to one so just do it the LAA way and lets get on with our lives.  Your way would not cause short term pain it would cause permanent pain when LAA guys continue to be outbid by LUS guys with less occupational seniority but getting credit for DOH.  

I'm trying to follow along in this thread, but did I miss something?
 
Classification seniority is the way we've always done it.  I don't think the LUS people will be doing any outbidding just because someone might have been hired in the company as another classification earlier.
 
I agree, using a social security number is an outdated way of determining your standing on the list, by the way we did it in the past was by the first letter in your last name.  That is, if we were both hired 1-1-2000, and your last name began with A, and mine with B, you would be senior by one number on the list.
 
So now, instead of a letter, they'll use a number ( your SSN) to determine your standing.  Is that the issue?
 
Or...............
 
At US everyone is hired as a Mechanic first.  We never hired just an Inspector.  But we did have a bunch of guys who hired in as Mechanic, made their 90 days probation, bid the first Lead job, then bid the next Inspector job, got bumped out and downgraded to the first Utility position so they have seniority that is very close in all four classifications.  And that always increases, even if you're in that position or not.
 
The only thing my first day (DOH) on the job gave me in the company and job bidding was, the chance to get on the plane before you while non-reving.  And we lost that part of our seniority with this "great" merger AA thing.  Even though it was "written in stone" in my so called, contract.  So the only thing that DOH awards me now is a pick at vacation before someone else.
 
Around here we say, "What's your company time?" (for vacation bidding), and "What's your Mechanic's time?" (for job bidding), and "What's your Lead time?" ( for Premium bidding).  With the Mechanic time always being at least 90 days higher.
 
So as long as it's classification seniority, with DOH for vacation bidding, I don't see any leaf frogging by either side.  Other than the SSN thing, I see no issue with the seniority integration so far.
 
Where am I wrong?

 

[Rogallo]

Since vacation accrual is based on time with company, then should it NOT be treated the same when it comes to picking?
This has nothing to do with IGM. So if you had say 40 years as a mechanic...From day one, you were always a mechanic. Now another employee, say a fleet service clerk, has 41 years in that classification. He just got his licenses. He comes over to aircraft maintenance, you would have no problem with him being right above you as a mechanic? Would it matter if that employee was a gate agent? Secretary? 
 Sorry, that is not IGM, it is called PAYING YOUR DUES!

 
Nope

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Quick question - when was the association officially certified on AA for mechanics?
 
Just need the month
 
Thanks
 
TSH

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I'm trying to follow along in this thread, but did I miss something?
 
Classification seniority is the way we've always done it.  I don't think the LUS people will be doing any outbidding just because someone might have been hired in the company as another classification earlier.
 
I agree, using a social security number is an outdated way of determining your standing on the list, by the way we did it in the past was by the first letter in your last name.  That is, if we were both hired 1-1-2000, and your last name began with A, and mine with B, you would be senior by one number on the list.
 
So now, instead of a letter, they'll use a number ( your SSN) to determine your standing.  Is that the issue?
 
Or...............
 
At US everyone is hired as a Mechanic first.  We never hired just an Inspector.  But we did have a bunch of guys who hired in as Mechanic, made their 90 days probation, bid the first Lead job, then bid the next Inspector job, got bumped out and downgraded to the first Utility position so they have seniority that is very close in all four classifications.  And that always increases, even if you're in that position or not.
 
The only thing my first day (DOH) on the job gave me in the company and job bidding was, the chance to get on the plane before you while non-reving.  And we lost that part of our seniority with this "great" merger AA thing.  Even though it was "written in stone" in my so called, contract.  So the only thing that DOH awards me now is a pick at vacation before someone else.
 
Around here we say, "What's your company time?" (for vacation bidding), and "What's your Mechanic's time?" (for job bidding), and "What's your Lead time?" ( for Premium bidding).  With the Mechanic time always being at least 90 days higher.
 
So as long as it's classification seniority, with DOH for vacation bidding, I don't see any leaf frogging by either side.  Other than the SSN thing, I see no issue with the seniority integration so far.
 
Where am I wrong?

The social security number thing is what it is and won't really affect us too much.  What I was referring to is Occupational Seniority where you accrue seniority in your classification.  This is different from company seniority.  Someone who was a fleet service clerk for 10 years and then became an AMT for 15 years would have 25 years company seniority (for bidding vacations) but they would have 15 years seniority as an AMT and that would be where they would be placed on the seniority list.  We have been told the IAM wants their members to be able to carry any seniority in any other classification with them to the AMT classification.  We have also been told there are many AMTs at LUS that were not hired in as AMTs and therefore would be carrying seniority with them from other classifications such as fleet service or stores.  We do not keep separate Lead or Inspector seniority at AA.  We have always separated company seniority from occupational seniority at AA in the different classifications so that is how we feel it should continue.  

 

[700UW]

You have been told wrong, the IAM CBA says otherwise as does the seniority agreement.
 
No Fleet service has ever gotten their fleet time if they became a mechanic.
 
Neither did any Utility or Stock Clerk who are under the CBA as the mechanics never got Utility or Stores time added to their Mechanic seniority, never.
 
The day they punched in as a mechanic is the day their mechanic seniority started.
 
For example, I was Utility in October of 89, got upgraded to Stores in 99, the day I punched in as a Stock Clerk is the day my seniority started, the 10 years I had as Utility was not added to my 99 stores upgrade, same goes for guys who went from Utility or Stores to a Mechanic.
 
And I started on the ramp in February of 89, that times did not go towards my Utility time when I transferred to Line Maintenance.
 
So I had a hire date, an adjusted date, a Utility date, and a Stores Date, when I went from Air Cargo to Line Utility I even no longer had any Fleet Service time, when I went into maintenance, so no your time doesnt transfer, never has and never will.
 
The only issue is Premium time, the IAM does it the day you punch in, the TWU does it from your original mechanic date, that is where the disagreement is, and they are discussing it.

 

[Real tired]

The social security number thing is what it is and won't really affect us too much.  What I was referring to is Occupational Seniority where you accrue seniority in your classification.  This is different from company seniority.  Someone who was a fleet service clerk for 10 years and then became an AMT for 15 years would have 25 years company seniority (for bidding vacations) but they would have 15 years seniority as an AMT and that would be where they would be placed on the seniority list.  We have been told the IAM wants their members to be able to carry any seniority in any other classification with them to the AMT classification.  We have also been told there are many AMTs at LUS that were not hired in as AMTs and therefore would be carrying seniority with them from other classifications such as fleet service or stores.  We do not keep separate Lead or Inspector seniority at AA.  We have always separated company seniority from occupational seniority at AA in the different classifications so that is how we feel it should continue.  

OK.
 
We have always separated company and occupational seniority also.  In my case, I have Utility time, Mechanic time, and Lead time.  I'm super senior as a Utility, in the top 10% as a Mechanic, and so junior as a Lead, I can't hold a Lead position, nor do I want to.
 
Am I to understand that the AA people do not want me (LUS) to carry my Utility and Lead time over to a combined list?
 
Also, is it true at AA, you could have 30 years as a AMT, bid a Lead job today and be considered to have 30 years Lead time by only being a Lead for one day?