2015 AMT Discussion

[FWAAA]

Yea right. Keep believing that he's not looking to outsource. We see the writing on the wall everytime policy changes are made.

No disagreement here. I don't doubt for a minute that further outsourcing is on his wish list.

For those who like the QOL in Tulsa or PIT or CLT or DFW who spend their days and nights performing heavy airframe checks, that's bad news.

For those who like living in more expensive places and spend their days and nights performing light checks and as-needed maintenance, Parker's plan to outsource more probably isn't as bad news as it is for the bases.

 

[Buck]

I can almost guarantee that TULE will be open to some extent. It is my understanding that the Overhaul Lines are going to be there, the rest is unknown. All of this can change, but historically the union will trade compensation for headcount. The unions primary goal as a "representive" is to generate income for their masters in the AFL-CIO.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I can almost guarantee that TULE will be open to some extent. It is my understanding that the Overhaul Lines are going to be there, the rest is unknown. All of this can change, but historically the union will trade compensation for headcount. The unions primary goal as a "representive" is to generate income for their masters in the AFL-CIO.

Non hub maintenance bases are target rich for cost cutting. Look no further than the Atlanta maintenance base of Northwest Airlines. Big maintenance base with a huge machine shop and engine overhaul...1600+ employees at one time. Gone in an instant.

 

[topDawg]

http://teamsterair.org/sites/teamsterair.org/files/uploads/ualproposal-web.pdf
 
 
 
 
Our contract is so bad, even compared to this contract. They still get profit sharing.

It is for the "lay everyone below me off" crowd like you. 
 
but anyone who cares just a little bit about other things than pay it was a huge turd. Hell even for pay it sets up a B scale. Once again bigjets you show that you really want our craft to die as long as you are the last person to leave. 
 

http://mroamericas.aviationweek.com/am16/Public/SpeakerDetails.aspx?FromPage=SpeakerList.aspx&ContactID=1164863


I wonder what Doug speaking at MRO conference means?

Are we going into MRO business or are we shopping around?

Its means nothing. Literally nothing. Almost every time there is a big aviation related conference in the airlines HQ city someone fro upper management will speak. A few years ago that conference was in Atlanta and Anderson spoke. 
 

Both?

I'm sure some talking is going on, but the majority of big MRO deals are done outside of these conferences. At best this is where negotiations starts.
Of course a lot of people don't think AA can do MRO work. Or they don't want AA to do MRO work. Just get theirs and hopefully TULE gets shut down so they can feel better about themselves. 
 
but for the most part they are just a chance for everyone in the industry to get to together for a weekend and network. Its a fun time to see people you don't normally get to see, learn what is going on with the industry and even talk to some vendors. 
 

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he is trying to line up contractors. I'm sure he would want to get this done before we get into the financial and headcount parts of the negotiations. Not good for us and negotiations.

 
FWIW the person who generally cuts(or keeps) your job is the VP/pres of your department. A good VP will fight to keep as many of his people in-house as possible (even if it means sitting down with the CEO to explain why they should keep you).
 
CEOs generally don't start the process of getting a contract started. 
 

As of Monday, there are 3,910 registered attendees listed on the website, representing every airline based in the USA plus many foreign airlines plus about every company connected in any way to commercial aviation, including airframe and engine manufacturers, MROs, parts suppliers to OEM and MROs, aviation schools and a variety of airport officials. Someone from WD-40 is registered.

Parker is giving a keynote airline division speech (30 minutes allocated). As the CEO of the world's largest airline, that doesn't look all that suspicious. Looks like AA and Envoy will have about four dozen employees at the conference, more than most airlines but WN and UA have registered a couple dozen each. Many of the AA attendees won't have to travel, since it's being held in Dallas - thus, AA probably has lower costs to attend than many other airlines.

If Parker was not at that trade show it would look odd. This convention appears to be one of the largest aviation maintenance events. I doubt that any reliable conclusions can be drawn about AA's planned levels of outsourcing or insourcing from Parker's attendance and speech at the event.

Pretty much this. As i said above, when a big time aviation conference is in the airline HQ city they send a ton of people to them. If you look at the list of people from AA i will bet 95-97% of them are going to network for themselves and will have basically nothing to do with the company other than having "American Airlines" on their name tag.
 
I go to these things all the time (for MROs/Maintenance). Nothing to do with Delta at all. (even though I will stop by the booth and say hey to anyone I know)     
 

And Parker wouldn't be the person dealing with the vendors, that would be finance and maintenance.

somewhat true. Depending on the CEO they will be involved to a point.
example, I see a fair amount of upper management taking tours of Atlanta.  
 

I can almost guarantee that TULE will be open to some extent. It is my understanding that the Overhaul Lines are going to be there, the rest is unknown. All of this can change, but historically the union will trade compensation for headcount. The unions primary goal as a "representive" is to generate income for their masters in the AFL-CIO.

737s are the only thing AA has publicly said will be there long term. That isn't much. 
Of course this all goes back to record profits and you and others like you are ready to take concessions to pay for raises. 

Non hub maintenance bases are target rich for cost cutting. Look no further than the Atlanta maintenance base of Northwest Airlines. Big maintenance base with a huge machine shop and engine overhaul...1600+ employees at one time. Gone in an instant.

FWIW I wouldn't compare the two. Keeping TUL makes sense for AA. 
Now if I were in PIT...... 
 
BTW glenn did you see we are taking over the NW hangar? work starts in 2017 IIRC. 

 

[Buck]

737s are the only thing AA has publicly said will be there long term. That isn't much. 
 
That is the visual indication here at TULE. The addition of a 737 Line in Hangar 3 and maybe a second one. 
 
but to walk through the Turbine Building where the Engine Shops are and all of the machines ( Lathes etc.. ) and the supporting shops
is almost a ghost town by comparison. Landing Gear, Platting and the CFM-56 engine shop are potential money makers.

However it is my understanding that the new management team is not real interested in those functions? I have not explored the CAM Building
where many assemblies are repaired and the Avionics shops are. 
 
The most obvious issue facing the 737 program from my view is the ability to obtain parts for the aircraft overhaul? It is efficient, but there is some lag time. 
It is my opinion that 737 will be here and even expand in size, however that does not mean the type of check will not change. 
The old 737 and Airbus narrow body program that is Farmed Out today is said to continue, while the new Fleet of 737's will continue to flow through TUL?
It has also been mentioned that when the Airbus Narrow Body gains service time, it is possible that TUL might see these.
 
 

 
 
Of course this all goes back to record profits and you and others like you are ready to take concessions to pay for raises. 
 
Listening to the mechanics here at TUL, taking less compensation and accepting the IAMPF are two items that will have a No Vote on any contract.
 
Tieing in my response to to the first question, less work here at TULE may qualify for any concessions, the downscaling of the Turbine Building functions and other support??
 
As for me? I will vote no on anything less than what Doug Parker promised.
 
The IAMPF, I can be bought, at this point, 32 years of service and a $600,000.00 stipend to make it worth my missing years.

 

[topDawg]

737s are the only thing AA has publicly said will be there long term. That isn't much. 
 
That is the visual indication here at TULE. The addition of a 737 Line in Hangar 3 and maybe a second one. 
 
but to walk through the Turbine Building where the Engine Shops are and all of the machines ( Lathes etc.. ) and the supporting shops
is almost a ghost town by comparison. Landing Gear, Platting and the CFM-56 engine shop are potential money makers.

However it is my understanding that the new management team is not real interested in those functions?

Of course not. One part of your union just wants money and their job. The IAM has made it clear at US and at UA that maintenance outside of the line. (and some limited airframe I guess) 
 
and finally you even have people in your union wanting MROs to get your work 
 
but fact is, All of those shops, plus V2500s, CFM56-5Bs, GE90s and GEnX airbus gear, APUs, airbus components, 787 airframe/components etc  "could" be money makers for AA. You, your peers and your union need to give the company a reason to make them so. (ie force them to do the AA work on those engines, airframes, components etc) 

I have not explored the CAM Building
where many assemblies are repaired and the Avionics shops are. 
 
The most obvious issue facing the 737 program from my view is the ability to obtain parts for the aircraft overhaul? It is efficient, but there is some lag time. 
It is my opinion that 737 will be here and even expand in size, however that does not mean the type of check will not change. 
The old 737 and Airbus narrow body program that is Farmed Out today is said to continue, while the new Fleet of 737's will continue to flow through TUL?
It has also been mentioned that when the Airbus Narrow Body gains service time, it is possible that TUL might see these.

Anything you have in the fleet can see work done in-house if you vote for it. Fact is you have industry leading scope in one of your contracts, but already the ass is using the WORST scope in the industry as its base mark. 
 
Ie you should be worrying about scope just as much as pay, pension, insurance etc. Give up some scope now, just wait for the next down turn, they are setting you up to be Northwest 2.0 and you guys don't even see it. 
 

Of course this all goes back to record profits and you and others like you are ready to take concessions to pay for raises. 
 
Listening to the mechanics here at TUL, taking less compensation and accepting the IAMPF are two items that will have a No Vote on any contract.
 
Tieing in my response to to the first question, less work here at TULE may qualify for any concessions, the downscaling of the Turbine Building functions and other support??
 
As for me? I will vote no on anything less than what Doug Parker promised.
 
The IAMPF, I can be bought, at this point, 32 years of service and a $600,000.00 stipend to make it worth my missing years.

Well i hope you don't vote yes for the IAMPF or scope concession Buck. I also hope you guys get an industry leading contract in pay, scope, pension, work rules and insurance. 
 
but most on this board seem to care about pay and thats it. 

 

[Buck]

Of course not. One part of your union just wants money and their job. The IAM has made it clear at US and at UA that maintenance outside of the line. (and some limited airframe I guess) 
 
and finally you even have people in your union wanting MROs to get your work 
 
but fact is, All of those shops, plus V2500s, CFM56-5Bs, GE90s and GEnX airbus gear, APUs, airbus components, 787 airframe/components etc  "could" be money makers for AA. You, your peers and your union need to give the company a reason to make them so. (ie force them to do the AA work on those engines, airframes, components etc) 
Anything you have in the fleet can see work done in-house if you vote for it. Fact is you have industry leading scope in one of your contracts, but already the ass is using the WORST scope in the industry as its base mark. 
 
Ie you should be worrying about scope just as much as pay, pension, insurance etc. Give up some scope now, just wait for the next down turn, they are setting you up to be Northwest 2.0 and you guys don't even see it. 
 
Well i hope you don't vote yes for the IAMPF or scope concession Buck. I also hope you guys get an industry leading contract in pay, scope, pension, work rules and insurance. 
 
but most on this board seem to care about pay and thats it. 

As for the work, I was speaking specifically TULE, because I have little or no information fro the line or the LUS based work.
 
One question: Are you topDawg, a member of the TWU? because if you are you must not have been here very long as the TWU WILL trade compensation for heads.
 
As a personal favor, would try not to use my name when you say union, as in your union. After all it is a closed shop and if I had a real choice I would select another, even the IAM or the Teamsters ( even the Teamsters admit they were rigging card counts.)
 
(The next statement is my opinion and mine alone.)
 
Everyone in this forum discussing Tulsa and the TULE should remember that it is very possible and highly likely  that Tulsa and perhaps even the state of Oklahoma could be obtaining  the lease for practically nothing??
 
Why should we worry about scope if a negotiated contract laid in front of us that we actually, truly get a clear vote on, which forces us into an IAMPF that this aging workforce has no chance of 
gaining a return on our investment?
 
If there are actually people in the union who are condoning the movement of work to a MRO they need to voice their position in public. Any "brother in law" deals at he expense of the membership must be exposed.

 

[topDawg]

As for the work, I was speaking specifically TULE, because I have little or no information fro the line or the LUS based work.

I understand that. I am saying that Tulsa should be expanded to do Airbus work. 787 work. Etc. You guys will be the largest operator of the A320 fleet and I think the second largest of the 737NG. 
 

One question: Are you topDawg, a member of the TWU? because if you are you must not have been here very long as the TWU WILL trade compensation for heads.

Oh hell no. Lol. I understand what the TWU does, and I'm not sure I'm against (short term) trading pay for employees. Pay comes and goes Buck, I'm sure you know that. Scope is so much harder (next to impossible) to get back once its gone. Ask United employees. Ask US airways employees.
 
However I do understand your frustrations. 

As a personal favor, would try not to use my name when you say union, as in your union. After all it is a closed shop and if I had a real choice I would select another, even the IAM or the Teamsters ( even the Teamsters admit they were rigging card counts.)

I gotcha buck. I understand the frustrations. I wouldn't join a union unless it was AMFA or an in-house myself. 
 
 

Everyone in this forum discussing Tulsa and the TULE should remember that it is very possible and highly likely  that Tulsa and perhaps even the state of Oklahoma could be obtaining  the lease for practically nothing??

I'm sure AA is paying next to nothing if that is what you mean. Most of the time the big maintenance bases, HQ buildings etc. are almost free. 
 
 

Why should we worry about scope if a negotiated contract laid in front of us that we actually, truly get a clear vote on, which forces us into an IAMPF that this aging workforce has no chance of 
gaining a return on our investment?

Well scope is what keeps you employed. 
but if I were you anything more than the current LAA level of outsourcing (which would bring a ton of LUS work in-house) would be an automatic no vote. Anything with the IAMPF would be an automatic no vote. 
 
In a time where your company is making the money it is, you should get a industry leading contract. Not just in pay, but in everything. Labor has suffered for almost 20 years (if not longer, haven't you said you were on the b-scale?) its time for our craft to gain back what we lost after 9/11. 
 

If there are actually people in the union who are condoning the movement of work to a MRO they need to voice their position in public. Any "brother in law" deals at he expense of the membership must be exposed.

I have seen plenty of people post on here they don't care about scope and are fine with work going to MROs as long as they get their pay day. 

 

[Real tired]

Non hub maintenance bases are target rich for cost cutting. Look no further than the Atlanta maintenance base of Northwest Airlines. Big maintenance base with a huge machine shop and engine overhaul...1600+ employees at one time. Gone in an instant.

 
Just like in PIT.  And probably 5 times the employees.  Gone in an instant.
 
I watched the company sell $100,000 calibrated tooling and milling machines for $1000.  A $50,000 hydraulic test stand for $500.   They sold everything.  Right down to the magnifying glasses that the Avionics shop used.  They turned a top rate engine shop and test cell into a parking garage for the county police and their endless new vehicles bought from the taxpayers dollars.
 
When it comes to eliminating jobs, cost is no object, and the company will spare no expense.
 
The remaining people in PIT, CLT, PHX ..... might...... want to start thinking about a plan "B".

 

[Runwaysticker]

If you think that they are going to expand Tulsa, PM me so I can get what you are smoking, look at my post, I expect in the next few years most of the hanger work will be MRO. I will vote no on whatever piece of s**t the TWU brings us, history keeps repeating itself, when was the last time the TWU done anything. Other than screw us.

 

[MetalMover]

If you think that they are going to expand Tulsa, PM me so I can get what you are smoking, look at my post, I expect in the next few years most of the hanger work will be MRO. I will vote no on whatever piece of s**t the TWU brings us, history keeps repeating itself, when was the last time the TWU done anything. Other than screw us.

 
 

 
Just like in PIT.  And probably 5 times the employees.  Gone in an instant.
 
I watched the company sell $100,000 calibrated tooling and milling machines for $1000.  A $50,000 hydraulic test stand for $500.   They sold everything.  Right down to the magnifying glasses that the Avionics shop used.  They turned a top rate engine shop and test cell into a parking garage for the county police and their endless new vehicles bought from the taxpayers dollars.
 
When it comes to eliminating jobs, cost is no object, and the company will spare no expense.
 
The remaining people in PIT, CLT, PHX ..... might...... want to start thinking about a plan "B".

This is the future, folks....This WILL continue REGARDLESS of what happens in negotiations. If anyone truly thinks the company is going to reverse course and start INSOURCING, he is dreaming. 
The sad thing is their are still people out there who believe we are going to get an increase in pay and benefits WITHOUT giving something back.
Most may or may not want to hear this, and I am ready for a flurry of DOWNS to this post, but the longer negotiations continue, the greater the chance of the economy heading south or a major event like an another hijacking and bombing on an airliner, and this industry will be KAPUT! For every day it lingers, that is another day where something bad can happen.
Contract language is extremely important, but look at what is ALREADY allowed.
LAA got bankruptcy contracts both BEFORE and During BK from the TWU. Does anyone TRULY believe that will change for the better?
There is one TWU official advocating putting it all off until the contract expires in 2018!  Luckily he is not part of negotiations and has no say. 

 

[topDawg]

 
 
This is the future, folks....This WILL continue REGARDLESS of what happens in negotiations. If anyone truly thinks the company is going to reverse course and start INSOURCING, he is dreaming. 
The sad thing is their are still people out there who believe we are going to get an increase in pay and benefits WITHOUT giving something back.
Most may or may not want to hear this, and I am ready for a flurry of DOWNS to this post, but the longer negotiations continue, the greater the chance of the economy heading south or a major event like an another hijacking and bombing on an airliner, and this industry will be KAPUT! For every day it lingers, that is another day where something bad can happen.
Contract language is extremely important, but look at what is ALREADY allowed.
LAA got bankruptcy contracts both BEFORE and During BK from the TWU. Does anyone TRULY believe that will change for the better?
There is one TWU official advocating putting it all off until the contract expires in 2018!  Luckily he is not part of negotiations and has no say. 

Yeah crazy to think you can get a contract that isn't cost neutral when a company is posting 20+% operating margins and such. Crazy. 
 
Thank you MetalMover. Our craft thanks you for keeping up the destruction so you can get yours. smfh 

 

[MetalMover]

Yeah crazy to think you can get a contract that isn't cost neutral when a company is posting 20+% operating margins and such. Crazy. 
 
Thank you MetalMover. Our craft thanks you for keeping up the destruction so you can get yours. smfh 

Don't thank me, thank the TWU. You haven't had the TWU representing you for decades. Now it's TWO loser unions representing us. 
Why don't you and your fellow Delta mechanics start a card drive and try to get either the TWU or the IAM to represent you?
I really don't need a non union member preaching to me about anything that relates to union contracts.

 

[topDawg]

Don't thank me, thank the TWU. You haven't had the TWU representing you for decades. Now it's TWO loser unions representing us.

I hate to break it to you, but the TWU is the only reason why our industry is still in a okay spot for scope recapture. You guys have had the best scope, by far, in the industry since 9/11. 
 

Why don't you and your fellow Delta mechanics start a card drive and try to get either the TWU or the IAM to represent you?

Why would I do that? So that I can have someone like you constantly trying to outsource me and take my food from my mouth? I'll pass. 
 

I really don't need a non union member preaching to me about anything that relates to union contracts.

I'm not preaching. I believe I just said its people like you who are helping managements destroy our craft.
Not really preaching.  

 

[MetalMover]

I hate to break it to you, but the TWU is the only reason why our industry is still in a okay spot for scope recapture. You guys have had the best scope, by far, in the industry since 9/11. 
 
Why would I do that? So that I can have someone like you constantly trying to outsource me and take my food from my mouth? I'll pass. 
 
I'm not preaching. I believe I just said its people like you who are helping managements destroy our craft.
Not really preaching.  

Really? What do you know about me? I have a hunch I have been in this business way longer than you? I'm helping management destroy our craft? How do you figure? I am not being selfish, just realistic. You talk a good game being non union.....The days of of shutting an airline down by means of striking are long over. The government will NOT release any union to strike an airline. Look at UA/CO....Those days are gone my friend.  You want to see us AA mechanics play hardball with the company while YOU keep getting nice profit sharing checks. It's always nicer to look in from the outside. I have news for you, OUR contract allows for a lot more outsourcing than currently is exercised by the company.  The scope that you refer to is short lived. Most new aircraft will be have the heavier checks outsourced. And we are taking delivery of new aircraft all the time.
You are putting the TWU up on a pedestal they do not deserve. They were the FIRST union to begin GIVING mechanic jobs away to fleet service. They first to give the company B scale.
Delta has been generous to you to keep unions OUT. The TWU has been more than accommodating to company demands to keep themselves IN.
 
We gave them a bankruptcy contract long BEFORE bankruptcy was ever filed.