2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[psa8979]

I rest my case AF Readers/Posters/ Brothers/Sisters . A sample of the PISSING match you would have if their was an election for all the Unions that some think will get them a B.B.D. (Bigger Better Deal ). R. Trumka/AFL-CIO gets it . To many blinded by hate , ignorance, and power don't. My suggestion going into 2015 for Airline Workers is use your anger, frustration,and energy to get your Govt. (Congress) to amend the RLA. The ASSOCIATION is a done deal . The NMB decision is coming soon . PEACE ! CHEERS !

 

[MetalMover]

I'm not getting into the jobs vs pay debate with you for the 1 millionth time that's been beaten to severe death where you can't even see the roadkill from the asphalt anymore.

I support my Union because according to BLS reports and Payscale com I should be making $12.00 per hour and I'm not.

I also support them because I could be like Kip Hedges over at Delta who was fired for being honest and I'm not.

Has NOTHING to do with your comment even if you want to continue to jab Fleet in the eye with your stick.

There ya go...you support the TWU because your wages are near or at the top of industry? Is it safe to assume this is correct?
I am not taking jabs at fleet but you said you are earning more. So you have done alright by the TWU? Is is safe to assume this is correct?
But you don't understand our distaste for the TWU because mechanics wages are at industry bottom.
 
So go ahead and support the TWU. Your work group is doing better industry wise than the mechanics.

 

[700UW]

And your fellow mechanics voted on all your changes to your CBAs over the years, you voted to give up work.
 
You dont need an A&P to park and push planes.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Copy.
 
I'd rather not take a chance at a vote. To me, aside from the theory of democracy, I see not advantage of a vote and many potential disadvantages. It really doesn't offer enough positives to take a chance and be stuck with many, many more negatives.
 
In reality, a vote may satisfy a person's desire to have a voice, but after that singular task has been achieved what we would have to work with on an daily basis may not be worth it.

So you are saying there should be NO vote? When the ALLIANCE agreement clearly states there WILL be a vote?
So what you want is the Alliance regardless of what the membership desires?
So you are okay with the alliance forcing a undemocratic alliance down our throats?

 

[MetalMover]

And your fellow mechanics voted on all your changes to your CBAs over the years, you voted to give up work.
 
You dont need an A&P to park and push planes.

Boy oh Boy your really are clueless as to what happened to the mechanics at AA with the 1983 contract which began the decimation of the mechanic class.
Yes you don't need an A&P to park and push planes, but keep this in mind.....Fleet service has enjoyed picking up mechanics work of the bast including receive and dispatch and deicing....Enjoy it.. Maybe one day fleet service will be outsourced more than it is now...
 
You don't need to be AA fleet service to park and push planes either.

 

[NYer]

So you are saying there should be NO vote? When the ALLIANCE agreement clearly states there WILL be a vote? --There will be a vote for the Association, but I wouldn't look forward towards a full blown fight between the TWU, IAM and certainly the AMFA supporters. That kind of battle will only create a bigger division regardless of who wins.
 
So what you want is the Alliance regardless of what the membership desires? --And what does the Membership desire, in your opinion?
 
So you are okay with the alliance forcing a undemocratic alliance down our throats? --When I can onto the property I didn't get a chance to vote on who represents me, that was already a decision made for me. Aside from that, I'd rather have my current local representational process stay in place rather than take a chance simply to have a vote. To me, having to take on a fight like that leaves more animosity and negatives than anything I could accomplish by even winning a vote.
 
If there was a vote between the TWU & IAM and the IAM won, would you continue with the representation without looking for further change?

 

[Rogallo]

Mover, they're not mechanics. They don't give a Chit!
 
Like he said, He's not making a measly $12/hr.
He's gonna hang on to the TWU teet for as long as he can.

 

[WeAAsles]

I think I asked pretty nicely if this conversation that's been going on for a thousand years now can remain off at least this ONE thread.

Nothing personal but maybe when I get home tonight I can start posting anti AMFA news that I've found all over the net and comment on it like a maniac? Should I?

 

[ChockJockey]

The problem with you NYer is if you hear something you don't like or goes against your beliefs, it's negativity or you spin away.

 
I'd say that's more the rule than the exception, most people tend to get emotionally attached to their narratives.
 
Anyway, I can sympathize with the different sides of this issue.  Originally I was not happy about the membership(s) not being given a chance to decide for themselves how to be represented; it all seemed very un-democratic and unaccountable letting the union leaderships decide this issue without consultation of the dues-payers.  We may yet get our chance to choose via ballot, though it sounds like we won't know for sure until the NMB makes some kind of ruling.
 
I'm not so sure we'd have had a JCBA or a 4% raise had we gone the route of single-union representation.  I don't think the IAM should have just rolled over and handed us into the loving care of the TWU (I would have been unhappy if they had), they would have been right to demand an election and as we're all aware from some recent examples, it only takes a few squeaky wheels to bring the train of progress screeching to a bureaucratic halt so far as elections go.  In such a case it's not unthinkable that we'd still be waiting on the NMB, this time to investigate or certify results, while in the mean time the workgroup polarizes and slips into deep resentment and mutual blame.  One needs look no further than the East vs West pilot battle at US to see just how badly these fights can go and for how long, and the millions of dollars in legal fees and lost wages pissed away in the name of pride of self-righteousness.
 
I think it's fair to expect that in any election of the TWU vs. the IAM people will generally vote for the union they already have, meaning that whoever wins, a large chunk of the membership are going to be rather unhappy about losing their bargaining agent of choice.  The Association though would allow everybody to stay with who they're used to, or so it seems to me.
 
I don't think the Association is a perfect solution, but I am willing to give it a chance before declaring it a failure.  I'm willing to wait to see what the NMB rules and how well and how quickly the Association can present to the combined membership a TA of quality.  If it doesn't work then it doesn't work, but if it does, it could potentially spare us from years of misery and millions in lost compensation.  For the time being I will remain foolishly optimistic, because there doesn't seem to be much profit in the alternative.
 
B)

 

[ChockJockey]

Lest my above post rile some of our guest mechanics, let me note that I speak from a Fleet perspective regarding the Fleet situation.  I don't pretend to completely understand and make no recommendations for the the MX side of the house.

 

[MetalMover]

 

So you are saying there should be NO vote? When the ALLIANCE agreement clearly states there WILL be a vote? --There will be a vote for the Association, but I wouldn't look forward towards a full blown fight between the TWU, IAM and certainly the AMFA supporters. That kind of battle will only create a bigger division regardless of who wins. Then so be it....
 
So what you want is the Alliance regardless of what the membership desires? --And what does the Membership desire, in your opinion? The desire will be determined by a democratic vote. I cannot speak for every member..So a vote is the only way to go about it.
 
So you are okay with the alliance forcing a undemocratic alliance down our throats? --When I can onto the property I didn't get a chance to vote on who represents me, that was already a decision made for me. Aside from that, I'd rather have my current local representational process stay in place rather than take a chance simply to have a vote. To me, having to take on a fight like that leaves more animosity and negatives than anything I could accomplish by even winning a vote. The TWU has created more division than any other airline union. They pitted overhaul against line maintenance. Fleet service has NO overhaul to be divided against. they are trying to force an alliance down our throats where there should be a vote. If we are denied a vote or only given a choice between alliance or NO union,,,,then that is undemocratic blackmail > there should be a third choice of "other."
 
If there was a vote between the TWU & IAM and the IAM won, would you continue with the representation without looking for further change? No. As much as I dislike the TWU, I would not vote for or support the IAM simply to prove a point. I will stay with the TWU until another change of representation can be voted on. There should be NO alliance. They simply should have gone with the larger union ala the pilots and flight attendnants. 

 

 

[NYer]

 

 


So you are saying there should be NO vote? When the ALLIANCE agreement clearly states there WILL be a vote? --There will be a vote for the Association, but I wouldn't look forward towards a full blown fight between the TWU, IAM and certainly the AMFA supporters. That kind of battle will only create a bigger division regardless of who wins. Then so be it....
 
So what you want is the Alliance regardless of what the membership desires? --And what does the Membership desire, in your opinion? The desire will be determined by a democratic vote. I cannot speak for every member..So a vote is the only way to go about it. --Well, it seems the majority is fine with the current process, I can't see any collective campaigns to change the current process. There are certainly a few that are not happy with the decision of the Association, but many of those same folks have been unhappy with their current situation.
 
So you are okay with the alliance forcing a undemocratic alliance down our throats? --When I can onto the property I didn't get a chance to vote on who represents me, that was already a decision made for me. Aside from that, I'd rather have my current local representational process stay in place rather than take a chance simply to have a vote. To me, having to take on a fight like that leaves more animosity and negatives than anything I could accomplish by even winning a vote. The TWU has created more division than any other airline union. They pitted overhaul against line maintenance. Fleet service has NO overhaul to be divided against. they are trying to force an alliance down our throats where there should be a vote. If we are denied a vote or only given a choice between alliance or NO union,,,,then that is undemocratic blackmail > there should be a third choice of "other." Those that want a third choice have an opportunity to deliver cards to the NMB and have that option put on the ballot. As I mentioned earlier, there is no such work being done, no even by AMFA supporters, so we have to assume the majority is OK with the current path and it seems they're main concern at this point is a JCBA.
 
If there was a vote between the TWU & IAM and the IAM won, would you continue with the representation without looking for further change? No. As much as I dislike the TWU, I would not vote for or support the IAM simply to prove a point. I will stay with the TWU until another change of representation can be voted on. There should be NO alliance. They simply should have gone with the larger union ala the pilots and flight attendnants. -- It isn't that simple with the IAM, their Members have benefits that come only with the IAM and it would be irresponsible for their leaders to just walk away from those benefits. On a separate point, it's curious that someone that preaches the "democratic" way is also advocating a takeover of the larger union over the smaller, with no vote.
 

 

 

[MetalMover]

 

 


 


So you are saying there should be NO vote? When the ALLIANCE agreement clearly states there WILL be a vote? --There will be a vote for the Association, but I wouldn't look forward towards a full blown fight between the TWU, IAM and certainly the AMFA supporters. That kind of battle will only create a bigger division regardless of who wins. Then so be it....
 
So what you want is the Alliance regardless of what the membership desires? --And what does the Membership desire, in your opinion? The desire will be determined by a democratic vote. I cannot speak for every member..So a vote is the only way to go about it. --Well, it seems the majority is fine with the current process, I can't see any collective campaigns to change the current process. There are certainly a few that are not happy with the decision of the Association, but many of those same folks have been unhappy with their current situation.
 
So you are okay with the alliance forcing a undemocratic alliance down our throats? --When I can onto the property I didn't get a chance to vote on who represents me, that was already a decision made for me. Aside from that, I'd rather have my current local representational process stay in place rather than take a chance simply to have a vote. To me, having to take on a fight like that leaves more animosity and negatives than anything I could accomplish by even winning a vote. The TWU has created more division than any other airline union. They pitted overhaul against line maintenance. Fleet service has NO overhaul to be divided against. they are trying to force an alliance down our throats where there should be a vote. If we are denied a vote or only given a choice between alliance or NO union,,,,then that is undemocratic blackmail > there should be a third choice of "other." Those that want a third choice have an opportunity to deliver cards to the NMB and have that option put on the ballot. As I mentioned earlier, there is no such work being done, no even by AMFA supporters, so we have to assume the majority is OK with the current path and it seems they're main concern at this point is a JCBA.
 
If there was a vote between the TWU & IAM and the IAM won, would you continue with the representation without looking for further change? No. As much as I dislike the TWU, I would not vote for or support the IAM simply to prove a point. I will stay with the TWU until another change of representation can be voted on. There should be NO alliance. They simply should have gone with the larger union ala the pilots and flight attendnants. -- It isn't that simple with the IAM, their Members have benefits that come only with the IAM and it would be irresponsible for their leaders to just walk away from those benefits. On a separate point, it's curious that someone that preaches the "democratic" way is also advocating a takeover of the larger union over the smaller, with no vote.
 

 


 


How can you say the alliance is wanted by the majority when there hasn't been a vote yet?
"TAKEOVER of the larger union of the smaller?  Isn't that what the pilots and FA's did? I don't recall a fight there....
So you think it was democratic for the union leadership to agree to an alliance without a vote?

 

[NYer]

How can you say the alliance is wanted by the majority when there hasn't been a vote yet?
"TAKEOVER of the larger union of the smaller?  Isn't that what the pilots and FA's did? I don't recall a fight there....
So you think it was democratic for the union leadership to agree to an alliance without a vote?

 
There has been no concerted movement or collective demonstrations of opposition by any large groups. There was one lawsuit, file by a maintenance local and it failed. Other than that, the Membership as a whole has been rather quiet on the subject. 
 
There was no "takeover" with the pilots and the flight attendants. Each union worked with their counterparts to ensure their concerns were met and did what they believed was best for their membership. Retaining the APA and APFA was done by mutual agreement, just like the Association was a mutual agreement with the TWU & IAM.
 
It didn't change the manner in which my representation is handled so this option, to me, is better than an all out fight. So, yes, I'm OK with the decision.

 

[MetalMover]

 
There has been no concerted movement or collective demonstrations of opposition by any large groups. There was one lawsuit, file by a maintenance local and it failed. Other than that, the Membership as a whole has been rather quiet on the subject. What would you like the membership do? Protest at the courthouse?
 
There was no "takeover" with the pilots and the flight attendants. Each union worked with their counterparts to ensure their concerns were met and did what they believed was best for their membership. Retaining the APA and APFA was done by mutual agreement, just like the Association was a mutual agreement with the TWU & IAM. Dont you have confidence in the TWU to ensure the IAM members' concerns were met?
 
It didn't change the manner in which my representation is handled so this option, to me, is better than an all out fight. So, yes, I'm OK with the decision. ​Really? Ask your fellow TWU members who will be represented by the IAM depending on location. And they will be paying more in union dues.